so what do the Yanks do next?

B

basilrobbie

Guest
I've been listening to or watching news programmes since very early this morning, and it has been grim stuff. That the US intelligentsia is shocked by what has happened comes as no surprise. That they have no idea what will happen next - or should - is more of a worry.

I think the immediate priority is the next two weeks. They need to get to the 21st without widespread disorder ; they need to make sure that Trump can't pour any more petrol on the fire and - more relevantly for us - that he isn't able to lash out beyond their borders.

The 25th Amendment is in vogue today. I don't envy Pence and the Cabinet in trying to decide whether that is the right option for them. It might seem attractive as a short-term measure. But the way it works risks splitting the Republican Party in two in a way that might be terminal. As it happens, I think that split might be coming no matter what happens.

In fact, the GOP is in a bind. There is a significant minority within its constituency who actually owe a stronger allegiance to Trump than they do to the Party. It is said today that 45% of Republicans think yesterday's events were justified. But I am more interested in the 55% who don't believe this. Is the Republican Party under this gang of crooks really their party anymore? I suppose only time will tell ; but it hardly helps the electoral chances of a Party that has lost seven out of the last eight popular votes for the Presidency. Not least because it energises and mobilises the Democrats.

Politically, the Democrats can probably hardly believe their luck. It's hard to see how this, combined in changes to demography and administrative reform isn't going to help their electability. But they do have to manage the nation through this crisis into calmer waters. In that sense, we are all lucky that a calm head is going to be in charge. I think Biden is exactly what they need at the moment.

That leaves two big problems. One is what happens to Trump himself. I have little doubt that he knew what was going to happen yesterday, and had some hand in orchestrating it. He deserves all the criminal sanctions that are coming his way, albeit they risk making a martyr out of him.

Which leads to the biggest problem they have, which is more social than political. They have a hard core of people - mainly white, poorly educated, working class - who are astonishingly ignorant and therefore manipulable to an extraordinary degree. Their sense of alienation has been fuelled, manipulated and exploited over the last five years or so. And even if the Manipulator In Chief is going to be shown the door, they - and the political capital they represent - are going to be here to stay. Worrying times.
 
It's alright Robbie, you can steal my thunder. 😉 I've posted similar thoughts on another thread but you've put it much better and so more expansive than I could. So a 👍
 
Some Americans believe that Trump speaks for them. They think he’s been trying to change things for the better - ie; to stop the ‘Political Elite’ keeping hold of power. They believe he does what he says and speaks the truth. (The political elite don’t). They can’t see that they’ve been hoodwinked and so, I can see him being around for sometime, causing problems!
 
Scroogeswinebar said:
Your last paragraph is disgusting and says more about you than anyone.
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I’m not sure it’s disgusting, but we do probably need to come up with something a bit better than “People who hold different view to me are stupid”, otherwise the issues will only deepen.

We have the same issue in the U.K. where political leaders like Corbyn essentially treat the entire working classes with utter contempt (too stupid to think for themselves) and then wonder why they won’t vote for them.

Treating people with a little bit of respect would be a start. Trying to understand where they are coming from instead of ignoring them, whilst simultaneously referring to them as ignorant might also be a start...
 
The parallels with Weimar Germany are very uncomfortable. The most important thing is what silent moderates choose to do. If they don’t speak out and fail to exercise the rights to determine democratic outcomes then they endorse the extremists. It’s what happened in Germany and the culpability should be borne by the majority for what the minority were allowed to get away with.

I would also encourage posters to not follow Robbie in using the rather offensive terms to reference a nation’s people. That way lies racism.
 
These people have been ignored and feel powerless and that's the fault of all politicians, Trump is just a populist, just like Hitler before him.

Much the same thing has been happening here with Brexit, it was more or less a protest vote, those who have been forgotten saw a chance to stick a spanner in the establishment.

These events don't happen in a vacuum, they happen because a large portion of an electorate feel neglected and abandoned, the mainstream parties don't speak for them, their industries are decimated, the unions are gutless or corrupt or easily blamed by the media and the mainstream,, so can you really blame them when someone professes to give them a voice?

Your last paragraph is part of the problem I'm afraid.
 
Scroogeswinebar said:
Your last paragraph is disgusting and says more about you than anyone.
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How is it disgusting? Haven't you been watching the tv coverage? Many of them look like neanderthals, and have even less brain power. Trump has manipulated them for his own ego trip.
 
Scroogeswinebar said:
Your last paragraph is disgusting and says more about you than anyone.
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Presumably you're disgusted because I said it about white people.

I think it is pretty well established fact that Trump's base is predominately white and working class. There is also plenty of evidence that says that they are largely people without college degrees, which in American terms makes them relatively poorly educated.

As for being easily manipulated - did you people who are moaning actually see what they did yesterday, and how easily it was done? It wasn't the first time that people have gone out to do violence at Trump's behest, and it probably won't be the last. It was wrong, it was stupid, and achieved nothing. And several of them actually died for their trouble.

Are they ignorant? Yes, I think many of them are. Some of it is a product of upbringing - living in the rural hinterland of the USA isn't a bed of roses, but there is a rich vein of social commentary that suggest that being raised in that sort of environment breeds parochialism . Some of it is lack of skills, some of it is their natural antipathy to the "liberal elites" based on the East and West coasts who they think enjoy advantages they don't have (back to parochialism, perhaps).

The point is that they are fertile recruiting material for a sociopathic populist in the style of Trump, and will continue to be so long after he has gone. And that is why I said that the problem is "social" as much as it is political. Some of their grievances are bound to be genuine, to at least some degree. And some of their alienation stems from a lack of communication from the elite that rules them. I agree with all that.

But some of it lies in their own lack of knowledge of basic facts, and their unwillingness to consider values and belief systems other than those they were brought up with. And they themselves have to take some ownership of that, because if they are victims of the current political system in their country, they have to bear some of the responsibility for it. The nation needs societal change, and the nature of that change has to grow organically from within the community at least as much as it has to be handed down by visionary leadership. Whether that sort of sentiment offends a few people on AVFTT is by the by.
 
Lets not forget that Trump still amassed over 73M in the popular vote, some of those might not like Trump but fear the Democrats more. That still leaves a sizeable contingent who voted for “their” man and I doubt that all those fit Robbie’s last category.

There are many disenfranchised out there in the electorate who don’t have a voice, maybe they didn’t agree with every word Trump uttered but if they are suffering economically and someone comes along promising to re-invest in their own countries industries and stop paying out for cheap imports then its bound to strike a chord with them. We have seen this in our own country too.

Having watched the events that unfolded yesterday, what I will say is that Joe Biden looked and sounded like an American President should do. He didn’t attack directly but sought to reconcile people from across the political divide and spread some oil on troubled waters.

I genuinely thought “you lucky lucky people” to have someone who is seeking to heal a nation and not divide it. I think his appeal will find its way to the hearts of the “common man” and perhaps the next four years will go some way to repairing the broken relationships across the State, his running mate Harris is certainly going to give a voice to another disenfranchised section of their society.

The change in the States may yet echo across the Atlantic and our very own Britain Trump is going to look ever more isolated, a change in the Tory tune may also be a by product of what is happening over there - don’t hold your breath though unless you like that kind of Trump thing.
 
Bottle said:
Lets not forget that Trump still amassed over 73M in the popular vote, some of those might not like Trump but fear the Democrats more. That still leaves a sizeable contingent who voted for “their” man and I doubt that all those fit Robbie’s last category.

There are many disenfranchised out there in the electorate who don’t have a voice, maybe they didn’t agree with every word Trump uttered but if they are suffering economically and someone comes along promising to re-invest in their own countries industries and stop paying out for cheap imports then its bound to strike a chord with them. We have seen this in our own country too.

Having watched the events that unfolded yesterday, what I will say is that Joe Biden looked and sounded like an American President should do. He didn’t attack directly but sought to reconcile people from across the political divide and spread some oil on troubled waters.

I genuinely thought “you lucky lucky people” to have someone who is seeking to heal a nation and not divide it. I think his appeal will find its way to the hearts of the “common man” and perhaps the next four years will go some way to repairing the broken relationships across the State, his running mate Harris is certainly going to give a voice to another disenfranchised section of their society.

The change in the States may yet echo across the Atlantic and our very own Britain Trump is going to look ever more isolated, a change in the Tory tune may also be a by product of what is happening over there - don’t hold your breath though unless you like that kind of Trump thing.
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Good post.

I agree that 74 million people don't fall neatly into any of the categories that I described. Part of my point is that Trump targeted those categories as a platform to build from.

Being more optimistic, I am sure that a significant number of Republicans pinched their noses before voting for him in November (I did something similar myself the December before). It is that moderate wing of Republicanism that made them electable in the past and possibly will in the future. But a lot of commentators over there think they are a vanishing breed.
 
basilrobbie said:
Presumably you're disgusted because I said it about white people.

I think it is pretty well established fact that Trump's base is predominately white and working class. There is also plenty of evidence that says that they are largely people without college degrees, which in American terms makes them relatively poorly educated.

As for being easily manipulated - did you people who are moaning actually see what they did yesterday, and how easily it was done? It wasn't the first time that people have gone out to do violence at Trump's behest, and it probably won't be the last. It was wrong, it was stupid, and achieved nothing. And several of them actually died for their trouble.

Are they ignorant? Yes, I think many of them are. Some of it is a product of upbringing - living in the rural hinterland of the USA isn't a bed of roses, but there is a rich vein of social commentary that suggest that being raised in that sort of environment breeds parochialism . Some of it is lack of skills, some of it is their natural antipathy to the "liberal elites" based on the East and West coasts who they think enjoy advantages they don't have (back to parochialism, perhaps).

The point is that they are fertile recruiting material for a sociopathic populist in the style of Trump, and will continue to be so long after he has gone. And that is why I said that the problem is "social" as much as it is political. Some of their grievances are bound to be genuine, to at least some degree. And some of their alienation stems from a lack of communication from the elite that rules them. I agree with all that.

But some of it lies in their own lack of knowledge of basic facts, and their unwillingness to consider values and belief systems other than those they were brought up with. And they themselves have to take some ownership of that, because if they are victims of the current political system in their country, they have to bear some of the responsibility for it. The nation needs societal change, and the nature of that change has to grow organically from within the community at least as much as it has to be handed down by visionary leadership. Whether that sort of sentiment offends a few people on AVFTT is by the by.
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Yep can’t post anything these days Mr Bazbob without teetering on the edge of calling all people who just happen to share different views from you either racists or working class bums.

As others have already said your comments were doing ok up the last para then you had to put in your dual dig about blaming white working class people with a poor education, what an utter snob you are typical of a university educated bigot.

Just surprised you haven’t gone all the way and called them all Nazi’s or being members of the KKK, hey why hold back tell us what you really think deep down.

Seriously what utter tripe you post about working class people snobbery of the highest order.
 
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For anyone interested and with and hour or two spare, there is a documentary on Netflix, The 13th, which examines the mix of race, justice and the prison system in the US. IMHO, and I'm no expert, goes a long way to understanding some of the deeper issues Straighters refers to over there.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Yep can’t post anything these days Mr Bazbob without teetering on the edge of calling all people who just happen to share different views from you either racists or working class bums.

As others have already said your comments were doing ok up the last para then you had to put in your dual dig about blaming white working class people with a poor education, what an utter snob you are typical of a university educated bigot.

Just surprised you haven’t gone all the way and called them all Nazi’s or being members of the KKK, hey why hold back tell us what you really think deep down.

Seriously what utter tripe you post about working class people snobbery of the highest order.
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All a bit close to home then?

I'm trying to analyse a very uncomfortable social and political phenomenon in possibly the greater free nation on the planet. You can stick your fingers in your ears all you like.
 
Dark_Side_of_the_Lune said:
I would also encourage posters to not follow Robbie in using the rather offensive terms to reference a nation’s people. That way lies racism.
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The irony of that is that the people Robbie is referring to are Right Wing racists and that was also a problem with some of those who voted for Brexit although in that case it wasn't right wing it was xenophobia and racism. I think the point `Robbie was trying to make is that there is a large number of poor, white, working class Americans who live out in the wilds who are still Confederate rednecks, and there a lot of them. This will be a problem for the Republican party because it is going to turn off your more normal conservative voters to vote for them in the future, the party has to decide which way it is going to go, moderate or far right and that could split them and I am sure there are those waiting in the wings to take on Trump's mantel, if he doesn't try himself. Racism is wrong no matter how you look at it and it is still a terrible stain on so many countries even after all the work done on it to eradicate it. Which says a lot about people all over the world,
 
The incident yesterday was foreseen. With all the summer riots by the Dems (Biden) did not condemn it and the Dems said people have to have a release. What happened yesterday was wrong but until the media stop taking sides and only reporting what they choose for their viewing public and ratings and I mean both sides their will be no unity.
 
vegaspool said:
The incident yesterday was foreseen. With all the summer riots by the Dems (Biden) did not condemn it and the Dems said people have to have a release. What happened yesterday was wrong but until the media stop taking sides and only reporting what they choose for their viewing public and ratings and I mean both sides their will be no unity.
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Unfortunately if the only choice the media has is to publish the truth or lies, then you can hardly blame them for opting for the truth.
 
The whole issue here can be summed up in a single word, propaganda. It is frightening in the world we live in today how easy and dangerous a tool it is, due to the ineffectiveness of the regulation of social media. This has to change.
 
vegaspool said:
The incident yesterday was foreseen. With all the summer riots by the Dems (Biden) did not condemn it and the Dems said people have to have a release. What happened yesterday was wrong but until the media stop taking sides and only reporting what they choose for their viewing public and ratings and I mean both sides their will be no unity.
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A bigger deflection than Darren Bent’s beach ball
 
Things like the Protester a female 14 year Vet was shot dead in the Senate hardly any reporting but then she was White this is the problem is. Do you think if she was Black there would be more news on this.
 
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basilrobbie said:
Good post.

I agree that 74 million people don't fall neatly into any of the categories that I described. Part of my point is that Trump targeted those categories as a platform to build from.

Being more optimistic, I am sure that a significant number of Republicans pinched their noses before voting for him in November (I did something similar myself the December before). It is that moderate wing of Republicanism that made them electable in the past and possibly will in the future. But a lot of commentators over there think they are a vanishing breed.
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45% of the GOP presumably are his core fanbase agreeing with the action of the insurrectionists yesterday.
 
vegaspool said:
Things like the Protester a female 14 year Vet was shot dead in the Senate hardly any reporting but the she was White this is the problem is. Do you think if she Black there would be more news on this.
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Hardly any reporting? Non stop coverage on all channels doesnt count because you werent watching MSM? And why would a 14 year old be a vet? Neither the age or the qualifications to care for animals...
 
vegaspool said:
Maybe in the UK but afraid in the USA it is different. CNN is Dems Fox is republican.
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You get political bias in the U.K. media, but there’s a point where common sense and a certain amount of reality and self-awareness has to kick in.

The ability of a great many Republicans to seemingly create some kind of weird alternative reality or at least go along with the one created by trump and his ‘media friends’ has been astonishing.

it was obvious 4 years ago where a Trump Presidency would ultimately lead. His Ego vs Public interest !!

The events of yesterday rest entirely on his shoulders.
 
Wizaard said:
Hardly any reporting? Non stop coverage on all channels doesnt count because you werent watching MSM? And why would a 14 year old be a vet? Neither the age or the qualifications to care for animals...
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Its says a 14 year vet that means she was in USAF for 14 years. Hope this explains.
 
vegaspool said:
Things like the Protester a female 14 year Vet was shot dead in the Senate hardly any reporting but then she was White this is the problem is. Do you think if she was Black there would be more news on this.
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I'm not one for guns at all and I don't agree with shooting anyone, but I'd imagine that storming the Senate is likely to come with a significant risk that you might just get shot. I'm not sure you have time to check someones military history or whether it really makes any difference in any case. It has also been widely reported in the Media, though it is clearly over-shadowed by the significance of the overall incident and the involvement of the President and pals in stoking the fire.

Whichever way you look at it, there's a world of difference between being shot in these circumstances and being slowly choked to death underneath the knee of a Police Officer, because you passed a dodgy note.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I'm not one for guns at all and I don't agree with shooting anyone, but I'd imagine that storming the Senate is likely to come with a significant risk that you might just get shot. I'm not sure you have time to check someones military history or whether it really makes any difference in any case. It has also been widely reported in the Media, though it is clearly over-shadowed by the significance of the overall incident and the involvement of the President and pals in stoking the fire.

Whichever way you look at it, there's a world of difference between being shot in these circumstances and being slowly choked to death underneath the knee of a Police Officer, because you passed a dodgy note.
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With many of the rioters being armed themselves I'm amazed there wasnt more shooting.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I'm not one for guns at all and I don't agree with shooting anyone, but I'd imagine that storming the Senate is likely to come with a significant risk that you might just get shot. I'm not sure you have time to check someones military history or whether it really makes any difference in any case. It has also been widely reported in the Media, though it is clearly over-shadowed by the significance of the overall incident and the involvement of the President and pals in stoking the fire.

Whichever way you look at it, there's a world of difference between being shot in these circumstances and being slowly choked to death underneath the knee of a Police Officer, because you passed a dodgy note.
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I totally agree but why did they not shoot more. We have riots because somebody has a record is shot by the police who is high on drugs and does not follow police commands. I hope we extend the kneeling to all lives matter.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
These people have been ignored and feel powerless and that's the fault of all politicians, Trump is just a populist, just like Hitler before him.

Much the same thing has been happening here with Brexit, it was more or less a protest vote, those who have been forgotten saw a chance to stick a spanner in the establishment.

These events don't happen in a vacuum, they happen because a large portion of an electorate feel neglected and abandoned, the mainstream parties don't speak for them, their industries are decimated, the unions are gutless or corrupt or easily blamed by the media and the mainstream,, so can you really blame them when someone professes to give them a voice?

Your last paragraph is part of the problem I'm afraid.
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I agree with much of that. But my problem is how do you have a sensible dialogue with people who genuinely believe in QAnon conspiracies? Or that the US election was stolen? When their deeply held beliefs have zero grounding in the real world? And if you challenge those beliefs you are accused of being patronising and superior?

One of the protesters interviewed today claimed they were “the only hope left for the world”. And he believed it.

Errr matey. No you aren’t.
 
In the last 30 years, roughly 50% of USA government has been Democrat. The dems have to take some responsibility for the polarized state of the country. I do t imagine all Republicans are red necked racists, there are a lot of disenfranchised coal and steel workers, automobile workers and such who have seen there industries decimated by being moved abroad or because of cheap imports. Successive governments have chosen to ignore the concerns of these people
Trump claimed to represent these people and they voted for him.
I hasten to add these are the morons who stormed the Capitol yesterday.
 
vegaspool said:
I totally agree but why did they not shoot more. We have riots because somebody has a record is shot by the police who is high on drugs and does not follow police commands. I hope we extend the kneeling to all lives matter.
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I don't know... Maybe the person was thought to present and immediate threat? I think it was probably down to luck or the professionalism of those protecting the Senate that far more people weren't shot.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I’m not sure it’s disgusting, but we do probably need to come up with something a bit better than “People who hold different view to me are stupid”, otherwise the issues will only deepen.

We have the same issue in the U.K. where political leaders like Corbyn essentially treat the entire working classes with utter contempt (too stupid to think for themselves) and then wonder why they won’t vote for them.

Treating people with a little bit of respect would be a start. Trying to understand where they are coming from instead of ignoring them, whilst simultaneously referring to them as ignorant might also be a start...
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Absolute nonsense x3. I think both you and Scrooge have got hold of the wrong end of the stick here. BRR was neither dismissing or callig out the working class for the problems of ignorance and prejudice among Trump's cannon fodder. He was merely pointing out that many (I say, the majority) of his militant followers are ignorant and working class. I would be one of the last to talk down the working class - it's where I'm from and who, at its best, is to be looked up to and admired. I thing you're making a causal connection that isn't justified.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I don't know... Maybe the person was thought to present and immediate threat? I think it was probably down to luck or the professionalism of those protecting the Senate that far more people weren't shot.
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There are photos of the Police taking selfies with the people who stormed the Senate. Its all wrong but there is always 2 sides to every story but there are the usual posters who do not accept that.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I agree with much of that. But my problem is how do you have a sensible dialogue with people who genuinely believe in QAnon conspiracies? Or that the US election was stolen? When their deeply held beliefs have zero grounding in the real world? And if you challenge those beliefs you are accused of being patronising and superior?

One of the protesters interviewed today claimed they were “the only hope left for the world”. And he believed it.

Errr matey. No you aren’t.
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You can't, the genie is out of the bottle now so fuck 'em, at some point you need to pick a side.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I agree with much of that. But my problem is how do you have a sensible dialogue with people who genuinely believe in QAnon conspiracies? Or that the US election was stolen? When their deeply held beliefs have zero grounding in the real world? And if you challenge those beliefs you are accused of being patronising and superior?

One of the protesters interviewed today claimed they were “the only hope left for the world”. And he believed it.

Errr matey. No you aren’t.
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Part of the problem is main stream media such as Fox and new rivals Newsmax and One America News parrot Trump's lies and lots of Americans ( both educated and the 'deplorables' ) believe them.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Absolute nonsense x3. I think both you and Scrooge have got hold of the wrong end of the stick here. BRR was neither dismissing or callig out the working class for the problems of ignorance and prejudice among Trump's cannon fodder. He was merely pointing out that many (I say, the majority) of his militant followers are ignorant and working class. I would be one of the last to talk down the working class - it's where I'm from and who, at its best, is to be looked up to and admired. I thing you're making a causal connection that isn't justified.
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I didn’t say anything at all about the working class in the US. I used the relationship between Corbyns Labour and the working classes as an example of how it’s foolish to tar the electorate with the stupid / ignorant brush.

The same applies to Trump supporters... It’s lazy to assume that a lack of College Education and some degree of ignorance (a trait which we all share to a greater or lesser extent) is the key to Trumps success with certain individuals IMO...

In fact I’d go further and say that it’s Ignorant!!

And therein lies the problem with a University Educated individual attempting to theorise about individuals of whose life and experiences he has no real understanding.

The point being that there are many other more significant issues (social and economic issues largely) which come into play and colour the individual opinions through lived experience. Lived experience that others are ignorant to.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I didn’t say anything at all about the working class in the US. I used the relationship between Corbyns Labour and the working classes as an example of how it’s foolish to tar the electorate with the stupid / ignorant brush.

The same applies to Trump supporters... It’s lazy to assume that a lack of College Education and some degree of ignorance (a trait which we all share to a greater or lesser extent) is the key to Trumps success with certain individuals IMO...

In fact I’d go further and say that it’s Ignorant!!

And therein lies the problem with a University Educated individual attempting to theorise about individuals of whose life and experiences he has no real understanding.

The point being that there are many other more significant issues (social and economic issues largely) which come into play and colour the individual opinions through lived experience. Lived experience that others are ignorant to.
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I accept your thinking in a generalised way. However, if you're being pointed about specific individuals (accepted: you may not be), then I might object.
 
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