BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
Looks like that might be a Job for Great Britain, now that we have shaken off the EU shackles.
Maybe reinstate the Empire
Maybe reinstate the Empire
td53
Well-known member
I'm not being charitable. He didn't create his base though. He can be whatever name we call him, evil, orange, psychopath but he didn't create his base. He discovered it, he exploited it, he used it but he didn't create it. America did. Democrat and Republican.
Whether he undermines democracy or not, it's the failings of an apathetic democracy that lets him get in the position to do that.
He wasn't even on the radar as a serious candidate till he kept winning.
Biden won't sort it out per se. He's a symptom of collective nostalgia for the idea of a 'proper' American president but he's not got the vision or support to actually address the systemic issues. He's not a bad man, he looks a good man next to trump but he's not going to make any sweeping change.
The next election will be the crux as it will be a battle for the republican party soul + a similar battle for the democrats as likely, Biden won't run again. Biden will do well just to keep the place stable before two new candidates, possibly facing an even more polarised electorate, choose whether to pick a side or try to be a unity candidate.
I doubt Biden will last 4 years I hope and pray they dont make Harris the next President or I may come home
dodgy_surname
Well-known member
I bet you studied politics td , what does td stand for?
td53
Well-known member
tangerinedream
I used the log in tangerinedream53 on one of the old boards, possibly seasiders.net, can't remember and when AVFTT came about, i was in a rush, stuck in td53 and never got round to changing it or doing a different account and as used it for about 16 years or however long it is, no point changing it now.
I did at a-level yeah. I didn't do especially well as I ignored the spec and just wrote my own rambling take on stuff which my teacher called 'very evocative but not especially grounded in reality' so I'd advise people not to take what I say especially seriously as it's probably shite lol.
dodgy_surname
Well-known member
I’m a bit of a nosey bastard
td53
Well-known member
fair enough!I’m a bit of a nosey bastard
EagleDay
Well-known member
Couldn't everything you say be attributed to a certain other group we have had with problems recently? It's my belief this is not just about Trump, it has been building up for a while and most of it is down to the accusations of racism, gender phobia (is their such a term?), cancel culture, character assassination all because of a difference of opinion both current and historical, by people who consider themselves better educated than others Something you seem very adept at). My fear is this, will sooner or later come to the UK because we have so many easily influenced by the Yanks.
I bleed Tangerine
Well-known member
Adding to my earlier point as well. It doesn't help that a growing number of people have the mind set of "I can't be friends with someone unless their politics perfectly align with my own." I have friends who voted Conservative, Labour, Green and Lib Dem. I voted for the Independent in my area. Personally, I think that's healthy and how we evolve as a society, by not letting our differences define us and talking about them. But the amount of people on social media and people I knew years ago that are refusing to even try and see the other side of the argument is honestly mind blowing. We will just go backwards if we don't compromise and see where the normal people on both sides come from (not talking about the far left or far right, but just the normal everyday people on each side). Just my opinion, but its another reason I see the US just getting more divided and to a certain extent this country as well.
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Lala
Well-known member
Wizaard
Well-known member
Not at all. Just saying that conversation has been had a few times.
Wizaard
Well-known member
It's on the old board. Victorsponge remembers it too.
20togo
Well-known member
Where does he say it? I didn't necessarily read it that way in his comment. Is the old board not available to search for. And again, it could well be a good few years back couldn't it? And even if one or two maybe thought it was acceptable it's nowhere near the "half the board" inflammatory remark you made is it?
Wizaard
Well-known member
I've already clarified the last point. You didn't read it into his point, but I did. I've got better things to do that search through old threads. You're retired and not allowed out with lockdown rules. Crack on
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basilrobbie
Guest
I think you are right that this has been brewing for a while, and the so-called "woke culture" is a part of it. But only a small part, I would say.
I take it by "a certain group" you are referring to BLM. Now, I would again agree that they haven't played their hand as adroitly as they could and should. But being a bit clumsy and a bit pious in your approach is a long, long way from (to name but two) suborning perjury and inciting violence - both of which the sitting President has done within the last week or so.
It's my own fault that this has become in some ways a debate about education, because I mentioned it first. What I was trying to do (again, not very adroitly) is to draw attention to how susceptible people can be (and are) in a world where you can very easily just watch and read things that reinforce your natural prejudices. "Educated" people typically are keen to do just the opposite. And if you are not very curious, or willing to challenge things, you are very susceptible to people like DT.
I notice he is rowing back a bit overnight, but they really are crocodile tears. As for pledging orderly transition, that is a bit like pouring petrol on a fire and then assuring everyone you won't impede the fire brigade when they arrive to deal with the mess.
You make an interesting point about the extent to which the UK follows the US. I don't think it will happen to anything like the extent to which you fear. We are very different demographically, far less conservative politically, and I think people over here have a better developed bullshit detector when it comes to our ruling classes. I know people will instantly say "why did Johnson win then?" - but I think people knew what he was like when they voted. They just wanted him to keep one promise so that we could actually get on with the rest of our lives. I think the schism in American society - and their politics - runs far deeper than anything we see over here. We might go that way - but we will do so with our eyes wide open if we do.
20togo
Well-known member
I'm very much allowed outt as I have to look after the wifes parents who are both in their eighties.. So I'll let you crack on whilst your working eh! After all you made the claim,not me.I've already clarified the last point. You didn't read it into his point, but I did. I've got better things to do that search through old threads. You're retired and not allowed out with lockdown rules. Crack on
And whether you've clarified or not your comment was still inflammatory.
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basilrobbie
Guest
I'm very much allowed at as I have to look after the wifes parents who are both in their eighties.. So I'll let you crack on whilst your working eh! After all you made the claim,not me.
And whether you've clarified or not your comment was still inflammatory.
By the way, I remember the "Paki" remark as well. I think it was mentioned by someone like billybudd, and several people jumped in to agree. We ended up with a long thread examining the UK's imperial history, and whether us saying "sorry" for enslaving a quarter of the world to make a quick buck was in any way sufficient to placate people. It was within the last couple of years.
20togo
Well-known member
A good post Robbie.
A few points. I think you intentionally understate how the BLM have played their hand.
I like your point about being curious and willing to challenge things and being susceptible I believe that should apply on here too.
As for your last para, was it you talking about the disenfranchised white people of the USA who feel they don't have a voice. Well does that apply to people over here so although you make the point about knowing what Johnson was like and I agree with it, why did they feel that way? Was it to do with Corbyn too and feeling let down by the whole political system including the EU? I don't particularly have the right answer but I do think it's a valid point.
20togo
Well-known member
Look, I'm not denying it happened and I don't disagree with you. But as you say yourself, "several people" is simply just a very small percentage of people who would no doubt have been firmly told that it was a racist term and unacceptable. They pretty much should have been immediately banned from the board. But I stick by my view that Wiz's comment of half the board was intentionally inflammatory. He should choose his words more carefully.
bollieboy
Well-known member
I think the word you are looking for is empathy.Although you were the example at hand, I was making more of a general point as far as ‘ignorance’ was concerned.
Im sure it’s possible that had you spent your life working on Fleetwood Docks, perhaps your work and home life been negatively impacted by membership of the EU and perhaps suffered some of the less beneficial side of the benefits system that may have coloured your political perspective somewhat.
I just think it’s becoming a bit of a trend in this day and age to pass off any kind of opinion or political belief that we don’t agree with as ‘stupid’ or Ignorant...Many of the conspiracy theories rely on the premise that everyone else remains in ignorance, whilst the ‘believers’ are truly enlightened... Let’s not forget, that a significant portion of well educated Western Society still believe in a superhuman being in the sky
We need to do better than that IMO...To be willing to drag ourselves out of our own ignorance and try to gain a much better understanding of how we address the issues, beyond ‘helping the stupid people to be more like us...’
Just to add you can be empathetic with people and still think them stupid.
Dark_Side_of_the_Lune
Well-known member
Derogatory labelling of people of any ilk is a form of racism. Frogs, Krauts, Yanks is stereotypically abusive and similar to those terms considered offensive to others.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
I’m not sure empathy is right... With empathy you are attempting to relate to someone through your imagination as opposed to having genuine experience or insight.
I’m sure you can think anyone ‘stupid’ but that doesn’t make it so. It probably just make you ‘ignorant’.
bollieboy
Well-known member
Okay - so what you are saying we cannot make any judgement on any people unless we have genuine experience or insight.
Giro
Well-known member
What’s the issue with Harris?I doubt Biden will last 4 years I hope and pray they dont make Harris the next President or I may come home
Whatever way it goes, please just stay there!
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
I'm saying that if those 'judgements' are made out of ignorance, then they aren't particularly helpful. If it suits you to believe that someone is stupid, rather than seek to understand and address the issues with respect and some understanding, then that is your choice.
SEASIDE2020
Well-known member
Fair enough and I'm sure it has.
Clearly Robbie is happy to use abbreviations like you mention and to be honest I have no big problem with that.
I agree with you when you say half the board would have no problem with using such abbreviations and half would say they did have but I think in truth nobody would genuinely care.
Certainly very few would have a problem with using the term "Sweaty" when talking about Scottish people but nor should they.
EagleDay
Well-known member
Good reply Robbie, but I have obviously become far more cynical over the years than you appear to be. And as far as "education", or lack of, being an indication to any level of gullibility, I have to disagree on that. I used to work in education with some very educated people, far more educated than myself and they were just as susceptible to being hoodwinked as anybody else, they just use a more intellectual argument to justify their decision.
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ElBurroSinNombre
Well-known member
I think that the people that BRR refers to feel like they have been forgotten about, much like a lot of the traditional Labour party support here. There are many parallels between the situations here and the US, such as the decline of manufacturing industry with immigration and imports supressing wages in low skilled sectors. Large areas of the country becoming a backwater wasteland with limited opportunity whilst in other areas there is a booming economy and many people getting rich quickly and flaunting their wealth. In a way, I would blame the left, for neglecting their constituencies and not taking the time to listen to their concerns carefully (think Gordon Brown in 2010). They did not redistribute the proceeds of the boom times well enough to stop large numbers of people becoming cynical and resentful. And at the same time, here, we have a Labour party apparently 'relaxed about people becoming stinking rich' and allowing money to buy favour from government.
Someone like Trump is a lightening rod who is also very good at manipulating existing fears and prejudices and also offering some hope to these people. If the left had been talking to them and importantly listening carefully then I doubt whether the situations here and in the US could have arisen. What BRR wrote looks a bit like victim blaming - you have to accept that this isn't a fringe movement it is something like 30-40million Americans.
Someone like Trump is a lightening rod who is also very good at manipulating existing fears and prejudices and also offering some hope to these people. If the left had been talking to them and importantly listening carefully then I doubt whether the situations here and in the US could have arisen. What BRR wrote looks a bit like victim blaming - you have to accept that this isn't a fringe movement it is something like 30-40million Americans.
Ruperthoop
Well-known member
ELBurrosinnombre-Agree with you fully , enjoyed reading that and i could not have put it any better.
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basilrobbie
Guest
Good post, but if it looks like victim blaming it isn't supposed to be. Saying a group are susceptible and therefore vulnerable stops a bit short of blaming them, I think. Albeit you are right, I do think, and do suggest, that some of the answers to that lie in the hand of individuals. Accountability is something that should apply to us all, I feel.
I found your critique of the "inequity problem" quite interesting. Not least because you put a fair amount of the blame for it festering at the door of the left (US and UK). I agree with that to an extent, albeit, in fairness, the left in America (such as it is) has more or less shared power with the right. It's different here of course, as the Tories have been the natural party of Government for a long time. What you are saying, if I have understood you correctly, is that the scrutiny and accountability functions that should be performed by those in Oppositions don't work as they should.
I think I would put it a bit differently. Here, I think the basic problem is that our entire political class has waned in ability, stature and judgement over a long period. In the States, I think the politicisation of their major public institutions (police, courts and so on) and the undue influence of "the lobby" is at the heart of many of the problems. But your diagnosis is also part of it.
I think Biden has a lot to do, and the stakes for their 2024 election already feel enormous. We all need them to get it right.
Hertsseasider
Well-known member
Meanwhile, over 4000 Americans died through Covid yesterday. Estimates say that could rise to 6000 per day very soon.
td53
Well-known member
Yes, exactly. There's a real problem in the left in that they want to tell the 'working class' what they should think and leave politics to them.
I was thinking to some extent about conspiracy theory and so on. There's no one really speaking to segments of society ideologically. Things like Marxism, which in my grandads generation were discussed on the factory floor and at union meetings are discredited and demonized. But the middle of the road capitalism with a few social buffers also doesn't really speak to the concerns of many. It doesn't allow for that much social movement and inequality has grown.
So in that vacuum what grows? If nothing is part of the discourse that makes sense, you'll make the discourse up perhaps. People want explanations for the way things are. None are forthcoming from the mainstream so therefore conspiracy flourishes.
That's firmly the lefts fault. They stopped fighting a fight in the 80s and accepted what was. That basically abandoned communities and individuals.
People may be more likely to be ill educated, but that doesn't mean they're thick. It does mean they'll look at things differently and not see some of the things an educated person takes for granted. They'll see different things and the left has allowed the right a free run.
ElBurroSinNombre
Well-known member
I don't blame the Conservatives for not really caring about the Labour heartlands in the UK, it is what you would expect and the Labour party should be looking after them. Labour had a great opportunity from 1997-2010 to try to address the structural inequalities in our economy. They did quite a lot to address monetary inequality (child poverty etc) but throwing money at people doesn't solve underlying structural inequality and lack of opportunity. They perhaps could have been a bit bolder in infrastructure projects and tried to build back an economy in our neglected industrial heartlands (midlands, north and Scotland). Many bigger cities have a thriving economy these days and can look after themselves in these regions (Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds etc) but it is the smaller towns that needed to reinvent themselves. Instead Labour seemed to spend more on the bigger cities whilst allowing smaller towns to sort of die (has anyone been to Barnsley recently for instance). Consequently people feel disenfranchised and ignored.
People like Farage (or Tommy Robinson for that matter) have been quick to notice this. the biggest success story of UK politics in this century, I'm afraid, has been UKIP. From no base they have effected a major historical change to our country because they recognised and spoke to these marginalised people. The centre of both colours has, I'm afraid, failed them.
ElBurroSinNombre
Well-known member
Completely agree with this. It sort of feels like head patting, don't think too much and don't try too hard to better yourself, we'll sort it for you from the left developing a type of dependency. I feel like I have seen this.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
That's a good post EBSN.....
Without wishing to reinforce Godwins Law, I do think that the Nazi Germany anology highlights only too well how dangerous it is not to take these issues seriously enough. It's fine to try and pass these matters off as a core of ill educated ignoramuses, but you may well do that at your peril. That's my main issue with BRR's post.... I'm more concerned that it doesn't give the 'issue' the respect that it deserves and treat it seriously enough.
It's hard to say how close the US came to heading into seriously dangerous territory. It feels (right now) like the safety mechanisms built into their strong democracy and constitution have kicked in and put the brakes on fairly comfortably... Trump has now been reigned in and given the official handover speech and presumably it will all be business as usual from here.... Was that really ever in doubt, I wonder? Has his ability or even his intent to perhaps overthrow the democratic process been over-estimated or was this a much closer thing? (Just not enough people got behind him etc..)..
Is it even over yet.... Or can we expect 'Brand Trump' to stick around - I certainly hope not.
ElBurroSinNombre
Well-known member
The US is very lucky that their voting system is not homogenous and is different in every state. If Trump could have tampered with the voting system more than he did to skew it in his favour, I am sure that he would have. His strategy was well thought out in advance. In months running up to the election he starved the US post office of funds and put a supporter in as CEO. He then started to cast doubt on postal votes before the election (knowing that the majority would be Democrats). It was harder in some Republican states for people of colour to vote, there were simply less polling stations for them. And then of course, we got all of the lies and disinformation after the election and we have seen the bullying nature of Trump in his call to the Georgia governor.
If Trump had been re-elected then who knows. I wouldn't have been surprised to see him try to make himself president for life and a slide into a cult of the Trump family. They certainly came close to the edge, thank god it is nearly over.
Lytham_fy8
Well-known member
Yep, I'd probably draw the line at Nazi but even then if they were a good laugh I might overlook it....
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basilrobbie
Guest
I think that is a very strange post Biff. Not least because I feel that you chastise me for complacency in one paragraph and then effortlessly outdo me in the next.
On whether I've treated it seriously enough, well, I've posted at length several times on this thread, I hope that suggests some level of engagement. And whilst I have pointed to a core group that gives Trump a platform, I hope that in all my posts as a whole I've been specific about them only being part of a complex problem. ESBN and td53 have been debating that with me all morning.
I think you are making some very big, and possibly wildly inaccurate assumptions in your next paragraph. We may never know how close they came to the abyss. But I do not for a moment think it was all as comfortable as you suggest. I think DT, aided and abetted by an unscrupulous Party hierarchy, has put the US democratic model under severe strain. As I said yesterday, it has weathered that mainly because some elected officials think the rule of law is more important than any nominal party affiliations they might have. And if you don't think that the process was in danger, or that he intended to have his way by whatever means possible, then I think you are gravely under-estimating him and how close he came to succeeding. With all due respect, naturally.
Your last question is a very good one. I think it is patently obvious that Trump's extended family now have political aspirations of their own, and if they can ride on his coat tails to contend for power, they will. What happens next is really dependent upon the fate of the GOP in part (it is in real danger of splitting over this) and whether they as a Party have the stomach for more of the same in 2024.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
I think that is a very strange post Biff. Not least because I feel that you chastise me for complacency in one paragraph and then effortlessly outdo me in the next.
On whether I've treated it seriously enough, well, I've posted at length several times on this thread, I hope that suggests some level of engagement. And whilst I have pointed to a core group that gives Trump a platform, I hope that in all my posts as a whole I've been specific about them only being part of a complex problem. ESBN and td53 have been debating that with me all morning.
I think you are making some very big, and possibly wildly inaccurate assumptions in your next paragraph. We may never know how close they came to the abyss. But I do not for a moment think it was all as comfortable as you suggest. I think DT, aided and abetted by an unscrupulous Party hierarchy, has put the US democratic model under severe strain. As I said yesterday, it has weathered that mainly because some elected officials think the rule of law is more important than any nominal party affiliations they might have. And if you don't think that the process was in danger, or that he intended to have his way by whatever means possible, then I think you are gravely under-estimating him and how close he came to succeeding. With all due respect, naturally.
Your last question is a very good one. I think it is patently obvious that Trump's extended family now have political aspirations of their own, and if they can ride on his coat tails to contend for power, they will. What happens next is really dependent upon the fate of the GOP in part (it is in real danger of splitting over this) and whether they as a Party have the stomach for more of the same in 2024.
I just felt that your first post was fairly dismissive regarding the nature of Trump's core support, though you are not on your own in that regard. As I have said a couple of times, it seems to be an increasingly common theme in media (in all it's forms) to go with the 'not as (clever/educated/enlightened*) as me' tag, when it comes to more extreme political opinion. "Delete as appropriate.
I'm not sure I'm making any assumptions at all in my second paragraph.... I'm simply descibing how it 'feels' or might 'feel' post event.... Senior Republicans, including Pence have seemingly rallied around their constitutional responsibilities and common sense and order appears to have been resumed. I then simply raise questions as to how close they really came as opposed to offereing any considered opinion..... The point being 'we will never really know'.... I suspect you may well be right and the situation played out on much more of a knife edge.
I suspect you may be right regarding Trump's extended family and their intentions.....I also agree with you regarding it being for the Party... In some ways. it may have been better for everyone concerned if Donald hadn't managed to have a last minute turnaround.... As it is... I suspect Donald Trump Jnr is likely to be out of the running, whilst the Daughter Ivanka (who does seem rather more balanced) may get a look in.
EagleDay
Well-known member
Surely context has a play in this as all these terms, chinky, paki, yank, limey, paddy. jock etc, are not just derogatory terms but are also terms of endearment dependent on the context? Why is it today's thinking always seem to come down on the bad side?
My American cousins husband was going to buy a gun.
They live in the Catskills and bears kept coming to rob his beehives and other things in the garden.
Don't know if he bought one, must ask him.
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basilrobbie
Guest
I suppose a lot depends upon how you define extremism. There are examples through history of people taking up arms that are seen as noble endeavours now. Usually where their opponent is identified as an oppressor.
But if you just look at extremism as defined as being "having views at the edge of the spectrum" - then is there not a case for saying that most ** extremists lack intellectual prowess? Isn't having the ability to identify nuance - and form views that reflect that - more likely the better educated you are?
I don't have a definite answer, btw. I want to know what you think.
** it's not a hard and fast rule. You could equally say that what extremists lack in the main is human empathy.
ElBurroSinNombre
Well-known member
Fair enough, if you want to define that sort of thing as a mark of intelligence.
The question that you haven't asked though is, 'If these people (the ones that you have called uneducated) had been born into money or in a different part of the country, would they think / behave like this?'.
And the answer to that, I am certain, is no. Therefore, they think like they think because of factors outside of their personal control. They are victims of circumstance, not to say that they don't bear some personal responsibility for their actions.
Dark_Side_of_the_Lune
Well-known member
There’s a lot to be said for rule by the elite and that democracy is just dressed up mob rule anyway. Obviously most on here are elite by the very fact we have chosen this as a means of endlessly wasting our time
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Plumbs
Guest
Margaret Thatcher-extremist and divided a nation with a legacy that still exists today.
The sale of council houses has had a huge impact on our town where society has looked towards the private landlords to patch that hole, and its done nothing to help the infrastructure and (what was) small industry in Blackpool.
Not quite on a level of extremism to Che Geuvara and chums, but certainly been responsible for a lot of the economic problems the North of England faces.
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basilrobbie
Guest
I think you are probably right (with regard to your first question). But for me the key question is where the balance lies between the two halves of your last sentence. And I think it lies mainly with the taking of personal responsibility, without which don't we don't get much progress in terms of enlightenment, learning, social mobility and all the other "soft" indices of happiness that we all prize.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
I'd go back to Nazi Germany again..... Would you not say that there were plenty of well educated and intelligent individuals who both supported the Government and who were motivated to act in pretty horrific ways on behalf of? There are plenty of different examples in modern times too, where seemingly educated / intelligent individuals promote some pretty abhorrent ideas. A great many University Students often become involved in fringe political movements as another example..
So, I'm not sure.... It's possible that, in some circumstances, being more educated might even lead to involvement in less than noble causes... Eugenics being one example perhaps?
On the Human Empathy front, I'm not so sure... I've had experience with people who are extremely empathetic until it comes to a specific brand of politucal opponent (I'm think here of some of my Green Hippy Dippy type friends)....All love peace etc. One minute and then "Kill the Tory bastard" the next. You might say empathy, tolerance etc. etc.., but then I'd go back to the Nazi thing.... People are somehow motivated to act outside of their normal character.. SATW's post the other day about his mate struck a chord as I have witnessed a number of intelligent, normal, empatheic mates, come out with some right old tripe during this pandemic... In fact I closed my Facebook account because of the utter shyte that seemingly passed for reality in some people's eyes..
So I think the underlying drivers are complicated... A combination of different factors and perhaps a kind of critical mass is achieved whereby some kind of mob mentality develops...
It's hard to try and pinpoint exactly what is going on with Trump himself on anything other than a fairly superficial level.... He's clearly got some very deep rooted issues, personal insecurites etc.. which manifest themselves in such a destructive way.. Not just for others, but for himself...
So after that bit of rambling nonsense, the short answer is probably.... I really don't know.... I think it's very complicated
Wizaard
Well-known member
And totally devoid of empathy
ElBurroSinNombre
Well-known member
I didn't have you down as a modern day Norman Tebbit
But in way it goes back to my post above. It is all very well to rely on people to take opportunities where they exist and are accessible. However in some areas of the country they just don't really exist. And that is where the government needs to act instead of allowing generations of decay to set in.