"too many care homes didn't really follow the procedures"

Scaramanga said:
So many countries made lots of mistakes. It must be wonderful to have had the answers all along. You could of always nipped into Westminster and given them a push in the right direction.
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As you know full well, it was clear from what was going on in Italy and Spain that we were heading for a shitstorm. We squandered 3 full weeks of notice. The WHO were telling them but knobheads were distracting by saying they were in the pockets of the Chinese. On here we were calling for a stringent lockdown in the main. To say no one knew what would happen is total nonsense and a complete rewriting of history.
 
Scaramanga said:
So many countries made lots of mistakes. It must be wonderful to have had the answers all along. You could of always nipped into Westminster and given them a push in the right direction.
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Perhaps pop over to Australia too. Two states gone back into lockdown. Could have put them right, by saying "what do you think you're playing at coming out of lockdown? Don't you know what's gonna happen in a month or so?" 😉
 
Wizaard said:
As you know full well, it was clear from what was going on in Italy and Spain that we were heading for a shitstorm. We squandered 3 full weeks of notice. The WHO were telling them but knobheads were distracting by saying they were in the pockets of the Chinese. On here we were calling for a stringent lockdown in the main. To say no one knew what would happen is total nonsense and a complete rewriting of history.
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Well the Chinese were telling the WHO that the virus wasn't transmittable human to human. Guess I'm a knobhead for pointing that out!
 
20togo said:
Well the Chinese were telling the WHO that the virus wasn't transmittable human to human. Guess I'm a knobhead for pointing that out!
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The WHO were repeating the mantra of test, test, test in early February. We did nothing for 6 weeks after that other than literally wash our hands of taking any responsibility
 
1966_and_all_that said:
So, whilst in his original statement Johnson said that TOO MANY care homes were not following the correct procedures, that must have meant that some were. How could that be possible if the second statement is accurate in stating that nobody knew what the correct procedures were.
Perhaps the few who got it right had ESP, or a TARDIS. Then again, the later clarification of the PM's words could be total bullshit.
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Some were following the correct procedures and some were not. The fact that nobody knew what the correct procedures were at that time doesn't change that.
 
Tangojoe said:
Some were following the correct procedures and some were not. The fact that nobody knew what the correct procedures were at that time doesn't change that.
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Too many. They are the key words and there is absolutely no evidence that many weren't, never mind too many.

Blame shifting. Nothing more, nothing less. Disgraceful conduct from someone who was desperate for the top job, yet totally unwilling to accept any of the accountability or responsibility that comes with that.

It wasn't his fault he contracted the virus either, if you recall. Shaking hands with all and sundry despite it being against his own Government's advice.

The man is a charlatan and is being found out at every corner. Yet still people queue up to defend him. Why?
 
Wizaard said:
Too many. They are the key words and there is absolutely no evidence that many weren't, never mind too many.
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So, are you saying care homes did everything right? Was using infected agency workers right? Was accepting infected patients from hospitals right? Just accept all parties made mistakes. Same situation as care homes in every other country
 
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It was well known by mid-March that asymptomatic cases could pass on the infection. I remember that because on Friday 20/03, before lockdown, I complained to my management that although the chap who worked in the next desk to me had reported he was off work and self-isolating because his family had gone down with CV symptoms, they had not thought fit to inform me. I had found out by luck, by overhearing managers talking in the open plan office. I was furious because I was due to visit my elderly parents to support them that weekend. Our management cited “staff health confidentiality” issues even though it was already obvious that the CV pandemic had made that management attitude completely obsolete.

The care homes that have survived without any CV cases are the ones whose managers resolutely refused to accept elderly patients being transferred from hospital. They could do so because they were less dependent on council and NHS funding. The ones who were dependent on the council funds were bullied into accepting the untested CV+ patients. The hospitals knew the risks but were ordered by the Dept of Health to carry out the evacuation. Care homes are designed to stimulate residents by mixing them closely and many found it difficult to change their regimes overnight to one of isolation.

Other factors such as lack of PPE, agency care workers covering several homes etc were all known, but when these decisions were being made it seems obvious that there was no proper risk assessment, or the risk assessment was skewed by the desired outcome, or that buck was simply passed on to the care home managers to deal with. The Dept of Health staff were focussed on the risk of hospitals being overrun, as they had seen in northern Italy. I am not sure that the full scale of the Italian and Spanish (Madrid) care home CV+ disasters had fully penetrated their thinking.
 
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Tangojoe said:
Your post doesn't even make sense. "Too Many"? What does that mean?
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No, you can't have it that some were following the correct procedures if the PM's spokesperson is correct in saying that NO-ONE knew what those correct procedures were. With the best will in the world, your determination to defend Johnson must see that that is a logical impossibility.
 
Archibald Knox said:
It was well known by mid-March that asymptomatic cases could pass on the infection. I remember that because on Friday 19/03, before lockdown, I complained to my management that although the chap who worked in the next desk to me had reported he was off work and self-isolating because his family had gone down with CV symptoms, they had not thought fit to inform me. I had found out by luck, by overhearing managers talking in the open plan office. I was furious because I was due to visit my elderly parents to support them that weekend. Our management cited “staff health confidentiality” issues even though it was already obvious that the CV pandemic had made that management attitude completely obsolete.

The care homes that have survived without any CV cases are the ones whose managers resolutely refused to accept elderly patients being transferred from hospital. They could do so because they were less dependent on council and NHS funding. The ones who were dependent on the council funds were bullied into accepting the CV+ patients. The hospitals knew the risks but were ordered by the Dept of Health to carry out the evacuation. Care homes are designed to stimulate residents by mixing them closely and many found it difficult to change their regimes to one of isolation.

Other factors such as lack of PPE, agency care workers covering several homes etc were all known, but when these decisions were being made it seems obvious that there was no proper risk assessment, or the risk assessment was skewed by the desired outcome. The Dept of Health staff were focussed on the risk of hospitals being overrun, as they had seen in northern Italy. I am not sure that the full scale of the Italian and Spanish (Madrid) care home CV+ disasters had fully penetrated their thinking.
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Don't come on here with your gift of foresight.
 
20togo said:
Oh I agree regarding interpretation of the point he was making but I had to read it twice to establish that.
But no matter, it was still party politics.
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I never got past the first word of your post. No idea what "iWow" means. 🧐
 
Tangojoe said:
So, are you saying care homes did everything right? Was using infected agency workers right? Was accepting infected patients from hospitals right? Just accept all parties made mistakes. Same situation as care homes in every other country
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They accepted patients because they were told to. Who told them to?
 
20togo said:
Perhaps pop over to Australia too. Two states gone back into lockdown. Could have put them right, by saying "what do you think you're playing at coming out of lockdown? Don't you know what's gonna happen in a month or so?" 😉
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Yet we still continue to come out of lockdown despite what's happening elsewhere in the world. Thanks for proving my point. We've consistently ignored medical advice and the lessons from elsewhere.
 
Wizaard said:
Yet we still continue to come out of lockdown despite what's happening elsewhere in the world. Thanks for proving my point. We've consistently ignored medical advice and the lessons from elsewhere.
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You understand that it's winter in Australia?
 
Wizaard said:
Yet we still continue to come out of lockdown despite what's happening elsewhere in the world. Thanks for proving my point. We've consistently ignored medical advice and the lessons from elsewhere.
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So your advice would be stay in lockdown?
 
Wizaard said:
As you know full well, it was clear from what was going on in Italy and Spain that we were heading for a shitstorm. We squandered 3 full weeks of notice. The WHO were telling them but knobheads were distracting by saying they were in the pockets of the Chinese. On here we were calling for a stringent lockdown in the main. To say no one knew what would happen is total nonsense and a complete rewriting of history.
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You really should think of standing for parliament at the next election. You've got all the answers 😆
 
Lost Seasider said:
Let's replace SAGE with Mac and Wiz, who needs actual doctors and scientists when they have all the answers.
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Nah. Just a discussion thread isn't it. You seem to take offence with anyone highlighting the tragic failings of our government. Kind of pisses a lot of people off when thousands of people die unnecessarily.
 
Macseasider said:
Nah. Just a discussion thread isn't it. You seem to take offence with anyone highlighting the tragic failings of our government.
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It would be nice if you would acknowledge that it was a highly complex situation with no clear right or wrong answers and very limited information either from the UK or the rest of the world, instead you prefer to use a global pandemic and the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions to score cheap political points.
 
Macseasider said:
Nah. Just a discussion thread isn't it. You seem to take offence with anyone highlighting the tragic failings of our government. Kind of pisses a lot of people off when thousands of people die unnecessarily.
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Seems plenty of govts around the world have failed when it comes to care homes. As I said, it was laughable when you said it was not about party politics yet that's all you've made it about since.
 
20togo said:
Seems plenty of govts around the world have failed when it comes to care homes. As I said, it was laughable when you said it was not about party politics yet that's all you've made it about since.
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Constant defence of the indefensible seems like the action of someone playing party politics. Hold the thin blue line at all costs.
 
Wizaard said:
Constant defence of the indefensible seems like the action of someone playing party politics. Hold the thin blue line at all costs.
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Nope, not defending the indefensible at all. Mistakes have been made, especially when it comes to care homes. Simply pointing out that other countries too have made big mistakes with regards to them so we are not unique in that respect. I assume you are prepared to acknowledge that.
 
RUSTY_2_STANDS said:
That guy/girl from St Albans?

Whats the fact he’s a Brexiteer got to do with advice on Covid-19?
Or is it that you just can’t help but bring politics in to it?
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Bringing politics into a political thread? And it's a she. She's not going to go ahead and criticise her own Government
 
20togo said:
Nope, not defending the indefensible at all. Mistakes have been made, especially when it comes to care homes. Simply pointing out that other countries too have made big mistakes with regards to them so we are not unique in that respect. I assume you are prepared to acknowledge that.
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Yes. In advance of us yet we're still taking no notice of what's happening elsewhere.
 
Wizaard said:
Yes. In advance of us yet we're still taking no notice of what's happening elsewhere.
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Outwith China (and we know how helpful they were in providing information) Covid actually seems to have hit the big countries in Europe at or about the same time, Italy slightly ahead of but only a matter of days (and there were likely problems with data from them also).

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID...first_confirmed_cases_by_country_or_territory

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus (untick "align outbreaks", wind the timeline back to about 31 March).
 
Tangojoe said:
So, are you saying care homes did everything right? Was using infected agency workers right? Was accepting infected patients from hospitals right? Just accept all parties made mistakes. Same situation as care homes in every other country
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That's all right then, just write off 30,000 deaths as collateral damage and learn nothing from it. These things happen.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
So that excuses our mistakes?
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Did I say that? I've said enough times, if you put on your listening ears, that this govt has made many mistakes for which they will pay at the next election. That's hardly excusing our mistakes is it? I wish no-one had made mistakes and that every country had the foresight to see the effects of this pandemic but that was never gonna be the case. Sadly, it was always likely that there would be many unnecessary deaths and the important thing is that every govt and country learns from them because unfortunately I don't think this is likely to be the only time something like this happens.
 
Perhaps if Boris was prepared to accept that some mistakes had been made, and maybe show a little contrition things would be a little different.
Instead he is clearly attempting to pass any blame there might be for the excess deaths onto the care homes themselves.
No wonder they are up in arms about it.
 
20togo said:
Did I say that? I've said enough times, if you put on your listening ears, that this govt has made many mistakes for which they will pay at the next election. That's hardly excusing our mistakes is it? I wish no-one had made mistakes and that every country had the foresight to see the effects of this pandemic but that was never gonna be the case. Sadly, it was always likely that there would be many unnecessary deaths and the important thing is that every govt and country learns from them because unfortunately I don't think this is likely to be the only time something like this happens.
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Hence questioning now rather than leaving it all for a subsequent report that the Government will sit on. Any sign of the report into Russian interference in the Brexit vote yet? Due last October but held over because of the election.
 
20togo said:
Did I say that? I've said enough times, if you put on your listening ears, that this govt has made many mistakes for which they will pay at the next election. That's hardly excusing our mistakes is it? I wish no-one had made mistakes and that every country had the foresight to see the effects of this pandemic but that was never gonna be the case. Sadly, it was always likely that there would be many unnecessary deaths and the important thing is that every govt and country learns from them because unfortunately I don't think this is likely to be the only time something like this happens.
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So why did Scaramanga say it?
 
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