War again

Matesrates said:
What happened in the past can’t be undone, depending on your view, it was right to create the state of Israel after the war, on the other hand, there should have been an equal area created for Palestine.

What’s happening now will no doubt concentrate minds and hopefully out of this disaster a permanent solution will sorted.

Over 440 children killed in Gaza so far, that’s totally unacceptable as were the actions of Hamas .
Click to expand...
Any kind of verification for that figure?
 
Matesrates said:
What happened in the past can’t be undone, depending on your view, it was right to create the state of Israel after the war, on the other hand, there should have been an equal area created for Palestine.

What’s happening now will no doubt concentrate minds and hopefully out of this disaster a permanent solution will sorted.

Over 440 children killed in Gaza so far, that’s totally unacceptable as were the actions of Hamas .
Click to expand...
💯
We’ve got a long history of balls ups going back century’s but I never see anyone finger pointing at all those issues seems to be just for us creating the state of Israel for some reason. 🤷‍♂️
 
Matesrates said:
Reported on main stream news, but provided by Palestinian officials. Time will tell if it’s true, but looking at the devastation there from bombing, it wouldn’t surprise me.
Click to expand...
So difficult to know what to believe in these situations, especially in an age where people look for news from sources that generally tell them what they want to hear!
I'm off work today so spent an hour listening to news/opinion from a few different channels for an hour. Some of them are quite obviously biased, I think it definitely pays to get your news from a few different sources unless you are only comfortable with an echo chamber scenario.
 
Are the Israeli Government run by Morrissey? Because October Spawned A New Monster. They have galvanised the non-involved support for the Palestina's cause, which is not good news for the ordinary people caught up on both sides. This Hamas may get destroyed in terms of manpower, but their spirit and probably some of their leaders will live on to terrorise another day.

I also see the IMF have given a warning for the global economy over this. A reason to de-escalate this. Mind you I let one rip and the IMF downgraded the UK's growth by 1%.
 
fcblackpool said:
Are the Israeli Government run by Morrissey? Because October Spawned A New Monster. They have galvanised the non-involved support for the Palestina's cause, which is not good news for the ordinary people caught up on both sides. This Hamas may get destroyed in terms of manpower, but their spirit and probably some of their leaders will live on to terrorise another day.

I also see the IMF have given a warning for the global economy over this. A reason to de-escalate this. Mind you I let one rip and the IMF downgraded the UK's growth by 1%.
Click to expand...
I imagine the leaders of Hamas will be long gone, probably in Syria or Iran waiting to go again sometime in the future.
 
US and Qatar have agreed to stop Iran from “tapping” £6 billion dollars of humanitarian aid. Not sure what tapping means, but obviously the concern is that this money has been going to Hamas
 
20togo said:
i know, that was my point. Doesn't make it right though does it? So your point about spending nothing really means nothing other than it's a flippant remark back at April. Have I read anywhere your condemnation of the Hamas slaughter of innocent civilians or should i just assume you do.
Click to expand...
I wasn't claiming that it was "right". I was merely observing that these groups are very often sponsored by a third party - often a sovereign state. I've no idea what your point was.

As to your last sentence, you can assume whatever you like. I don't have to post my opinions to order to please you.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I wasn't claiming that it was "right". I was merely observing that these groups are very often sponsored by a third party - often a sovereign state. I've no idea what your point was.

As to your last sentence, you can assume whatever you like. I don't have to post my opinions to order to please you.
Click to expand...
no you don't but if you want to comment on mine then you can expect a comeback. that's whether it pleases you or not.
 
Answering a question about Hezbollah, Blinken said Americans are determined there will not be a second front and no one should try to take advantage of the moment. That could be like a red rag to a bull, I’m sure that some Arab nations would love America to be drawn in to this conflict.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I only commented on your post because you barged into a conversation I was having with someone else.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure it says anywhere in the rules of engagement that a "conversation" on AVFTT should solely be one to one. Correct me if I'm wrong and I've been posting on here for nigh on twenty years but it's my assumption that pretty much most conversations on AVFTT involve more than just the two posters you seem to now think it should. And I'm not sure you were having a conversation with anyone,anyway. After all, he never addressed you in a post did he? So just perhaps it was you who was barging in!
 
Last edited:
Should we send our troops to patrol the streets like we did in Belfast. Hope for peaceful solution that took many years, if a peaceful solution actually exists.
 
todayistheday said:
Should we send our troops to patrol the streets like we did in Belfast. Hope for peaceful solution that took many years, if a peaceful solution actually exists.
Click to expand...
just some sort of ceasefire would be a start. On both sides. And I doubt that Hamas would allow any sort of peace keeping force into their territory.
 
20togo said:
I'm not sure it says anywhere in the rules of engagement that a "conversation" on AVFTT should solely be one to one. Correct me if I'm wrong and I've been posting on here for nigh on twenty years but it's my assumption that pretty much most conversations on AVFTT involve more than just the two posters you seem to now think it should. And I'm not sure you were having a conversation with anyone,anyway. After all, he never addressed you in a post did he? So just perhaps it was you who was barging in!
Click to expand...

You carry on arguing. There must be an empty room nearby that you haven't fallen out with yet.
 
Lost Seasider said:
What makes you think a congressman from Texas has better information than the Israeli PM?

Why are you trying to create a conspiracy theory out of this?
Click to expand...

It’s a copy and paste from the Telegraph

Why did it take one of the best armies in the world 8 hours to get to one of the kibbutz that was under attack?

The 8 hours was quoted by a relative with family in the kibbutz
 
Matesrates said:
We’re sending war ships and spy planes to assist Israel, planes to to track the movement of arms to terrorist groups. Ships to aid humanitarian efforts.
Click to expand...
Maybe picking the arms up earlier in the process and dealing with the arms dealers, the lowest of the low, selling death and destruction so that they can buy yachts and villas would be a good thing for western governments to do.
I've read reports that the bent Ukranian military officials who were recently fired for corruption had been selling the weapons the West has been donating to Ukraine to Hamas, this would be grim but unsurprising.
Could also be bullshit! So difficult to find the truth anymore and greed and selfish acts are so common amongst those with wealth, power and influence.
 
gjr said:
Maybe picking the arms up earlier in the process and dealing with the arms dealers, the lowest of the low, selling death and destruction so that they can buy yachts and villas would be a good thing for western governments to do.
I've read reports that the bent Ukranian military officials who were recently fired for corruption had been selling the weapons the West has been donating to Ukraine to Hamas, this would be grim but unsurprising.
Click to expand...
What a world we live in
 
  • Like
Reactions: gjr
Seasider3610 said:
It’s a copy and paste from the Telegraph

Why did it take one of the best armies in the world 8 hours to get to one of the kibbutz that was under attack?

The 8 hours was quoted by a relative with family in the kibbutz
Click to expand...
I've read an article written by a Jewish woman in Israel that said the reason they were vulnerable to attack near the Gaza strip was because the Israeli government had deployed so much of the IDF to the West Bank in support of Israelis displacing Palestinians in that zone.
Hamas fighters involved in the attack on the Weekend are evil, psychopathic fanatics, unfortunately there are similar people in the Israeli government who see people outside of their demographic as less than human aswell. Throw in a belief in God and you have a problem that is probably unsolvable.
 
Matesrates said:
Reported on main stream news, but provided by Palestinian officials. Time will tell if it’s true, but looking at the devastation there from bombing, it wouldn’t surprise me.
Click to expand...
No is a word.

My 2p, even if it were true, I don't think Israel deliberately targets civilians or children, so if there is any truth in it, it's because Hamas tries to hide its military infrastructure behind women and children.

Soldiers of god,....................yeah.
 
Lost Seasider said:
No is a word.

My 2p, even if it were true, I don't think Israel deliberately targets civilians or children, so if there is any truth in it, it's because Hamas tries to hide its military infrastructure behind women and children.

Soldiers of god,....................yeah.
Click to expand...
I remember reading Hamas did this and it is well worth pointing out, as you mention. Israel cannot attack purely military targets because Hamas puts them in with civilians.

Human Rights Watch are now reporting Israel is using chemical weapons by way of White Phosphorus. They are insinuating war crimes. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Oh come on it’s not about background history here we all know the issues surrounding Israel and Palestine but what happened Saturday morning was just inexcusable.
Murdering scum came out of Gaza with one thing on they're minds and that was to kill as many Jews (mostly civilians) as possible and over 1,000 were murdered in cold blood just for being Jewish.
They didn’t discriminate wether they were the elderly, women, children, even babies who were the easy targets.
I’m sick to death about hearing how Isreal has brought this on itself for its mistreatment of Palestinians.
How can anyone justify a massacre? How can anyone justify babies having they’re throats cut some even beheaded? The lucky ones were dragged away by scum so called men probably never to be seen again but why involve children?
Hamas need wiping off the face of the earth for what happened on Saturday like I said it’s totally inexcusable what they did.
And yes I feel really sorry for the Palestinian civilians in Gaza caught up in this war but what did they think Israel was going to do following the aftermath hold peace talks for a solution?
Things were going in the right direction in the Middle East Saudi Arabia were even considering recognising Israel as a Jewish state but that’s all gone now.
Conflict has been going on in this region for over 2,000 years and what happened on Saturday morning has probably put it back another 2,000 years so well done Hamas and its followers they clearly want to continue with this war and they’ve got it now lock stock and barrel.
Click to expand...
In the past 15 years, Palestinian ‘terrorists’ have killed 300 Israeli children. In that same period, Israel have killed 3600 Palestinian children. Israel is a ‘country’ with high morals (😂) and a powerful army. Palestine doesn’t have an army, no way to defend itself, and living under oppression.
Why does a moralistic country of overwhelming power, think it’s ok to kill 10x the amount of kids that a terrorist organisation has killed? And then collectively punish civilians?
Why do you think that things were going in the right direction with the Saudi deal? Your right direction. Nothing more.
I’m sorry to everyone on this board that I overstepped my own personal mark the other night, especially to Spud, I got a bit personal. Genuinely sorry mate. It’s a subject very emotive to me, so apologies to everyone.
 
20togo said:
so now, the president of the usa says he's seen pictures so i'll assume your judgement is no longer reserved!
Click to expand...
He’s seen pictures? Wow! It’s true then? How about the news station that reported it is back peddling? How about the interviews with Israeli women saying how they were treated kindly? Who do you believe? Neither of us know yet, that’s the only thing for certain.
Any civilian casualties are abhorrent. Do you want to keep score on which side suffers more?
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
They rule the Gaza Strip and have turned it onto a terrorist enclave

Even Egypt still blockade the Gaza Strip, it's a slum and should be flattened

Hamas have caused this and i have zero sympathy for them or the people who live under their rule and support them

Oh and btw this has nothing to do with the West Bank where they have more moderate leaders with open borders and aid from the West

The whole thing is a mess and until Hamas are wiped out there will never be peace

I would also go after the cowardly Hamas leaders who live in Turkey and Qatar
Click to expand...
Bollocks. Absolute shite.
 
Johnno said:
In the past 15 years, Palestinian ‘terrorists’ have killed 300 Israeli children. In that same period, Israel have killed 3600 Palestinian children. Israel is a ‘country’ with high morals (😂) and a powerful army. Palestine doesn’t have an army, no way to defend itself, and living under oppression.
Why does a moralistic country of overwhelming power, think it’s ok to kill 10x the amount of kids that a terrorist organisation has killed? And then collectively punish civilians?
Why do you think that things were going in the right direction with the Saudi deal? Your right direction. Nothing more.
I’m sorry to everyone on this board that I overstepped my own personal mark the other night, especially to Spud, I got a bit personal. Genuinely sorry mate. It’s a subject very emotive to me, so apologies to everyone.
Click to expand...
The subject of course is very emotive, but do you seriously think you strike the right balance when you don't accept the word of an Israeli general when he says that children and babies have been murdered and beheaded, of which now evidence has been seen, but you haven't got the good grace to come on here and acknowledge that! Yet when it's reported that many Palestinian children[440] have been killed in the bombings we have to accept that as correct. Which I do. But you say nothing.

In a war which could end up with many more casualties and destabilise the whole of the middle east which then thinking it not unreasonable to escalate to a global problem, I find your views incredibly biased. Israel as a nation state has a right to exist and that what is the situation at the moment. What is needed is to find a solution for the Palestine problem and of course it's not unreasonable to think that should be the creation of a Palestine nation. But where and how of course is the stumbling block.
 
The Middle East is a real powder keg with the seemingly impossible Israel/Palestine situation. Insisting on the release of the Israeli kidnapped people before allowing supplies to start again into Gaza is sensible from an Israel point of view but Hamas will worry that if they do they will get invaded. I think Hamas did the attack and atrocities to goad Israel but I can’t see the sense in it even if they were frustrated by lack of meaningful peace talks. Watching the news everyday with the very brave reporters is very disturbing
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I only commented on your post because you barged into a conversation I was having with someone else.
Click to expand...
Actually, as the person who's comment you replied to, we weren't having a conversation. "A conversation" would imply I had engaged with you by responding to your comment so don't try and use me to justify your tirade against 20
 
20togo said:
I'm not sure it says anywhere in the rules of engagement that a "conversation" on AVFTT should solely be one to one. Correct me if I'm wrong and I've been posting on here for nigh on twenty years but it's my assumption that pretty much most conversations on AVFTT involve more than just the two posters you seem to now think it should. And I'm not sure you were having a conversation with anyone,anyway. After all, he never addressed you in a post did he? So just perhaps it was you who was barging in!
Click to expand...
It wasn't even "a conversation" as I didn't engage with his reply to me

I guess we can add the English language to the list of things he doesn't understand
 
Last edited:
Threepeaksphil said:
The Middle East is a real powder keg with the seemingly impossible Israel/Palestine situation. Insisting on the release of the Israeli kidnapped people before allowing supplies to start again into Gaza is sensible from an Israel point of view but Hamas will worry that if they do they will get invaded. I think Hamas did the attack and atrocities to goad Israel but I can’t see the sense in it even if they were frustrated by lack of meaningful peace talks. Watching the news everyday with the very brave reporters is very disturbing
Click to expand...
They don't want peace talks, they want all Israelis dead, 5,000,000 dead Jews isn't genocide to them, it's a job half done.

You also need to look at Iran's role in the attack, and their ambitions for the wider region: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/12/iran-sinister-plan-is-in-danger-of-succeeding/
 
Lost Seasider said:
They don't want peace talks, they want all Israelis dead, 5,000,000 dead Jews isn't genocide to them, it's a job half done.

You also need to look at Iran's role in the attack, and their ambitions for the wider region: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/12/iran-sinister-plan-is-in-danger-of-succeeding/
Click to expand...
Nearly spat my brew out when Ben Wallace says "Iran hates the economic success of Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar".
Is this the saudi state who had links with 9/11, funded extremist fundamental schools and murdered a journalist in cold blood at one of their foreign embassies? And Ben Wallace is holding these up as a success story. Fuck me i can't take that article seriously.
Oh and their economic success is due to oil not much else.....
 
Shandypants said:
Nearly spat my brew out when Ben Wallace says "Iran hates the economic success of Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar".
Is this the saudi state who had links with 9/11, funded extremist fundamental schools and murdered a journalist in cold blood at one of their foreign embassies? And Ben Wallace is holding these up as a success story. Fuck me i can't take that article seriously.
Oh and their economic success is due to oil not much else.....
Click to expand...

He's not necessarily holding them up as ethical success stories, and none of what you've written necessarily negates what he's saying about iran envying their economic strength.

I actually thought his conclusion was spot on, and a warning to Israel not to fall into the trap Hamas has set for them by over-reacting:

"This awful attack should remind us all what is at stake. Iran will want Israel to overreact. It will want Israel’s actions to stray beyond self-defence under international law. We should all remember that it is perfectly possible to call Hamas terrorists and not take sides between Palestine and Israel, just as it is possible to hold the Israeli army to account without questioning Israel’s right to exist. The BBC seem to think that to refer to Hamas as terrorists is to take sides. It is not. It is the methods that they use that predominantly define terrorists not the cause.

Hamas has never spoken or represented the moderate Palestinian. It does not speak for the majority. We must not let these awful events drive us to the extremes where human rights, international law and a two-state solution are abandoned. That way will lead only to a growth in Iranian regime power and instability in the Gulf. If the winner of these attacks is extremism, we all lose."
 
gjr said:
I've read an article written by a Jewish woman in Israel that said the reason they were vulnerable to attack near the Gaza strip was because the Israeli government had deployed so much of the IDF to the West Bank in support of Israelis displacing Palestinians in that zone.
Hamas fighters involved in the attack on the Weekend are evil, psychopathic fanatics, unfortunately there are similar people in the Israeli government who see people outside of their demographic as less than human aswell. Throw in a belief in God and you have a problem that is probably unsolvable.
Click to expand...

Their special forces will have a rapid reaction unit that could have been deployed in an hour or 2 with helicopters.

It makes no military sense to wait 8 hours to react.
 
Seasider3610 said:
Their special forces will have a rapid reaction unit that could have been deployed in an hour or 2 with helicopters.

It makes no military sense to wait 8 hours to react.
Click to expand...
There were about 1,500 Hamas fighters in Israel at the time, how big a "rapid reaction unit" do you think Israel would've had on standby?
 
Lost Seasider said:
There were about 1,500 Hamas fighters in Israel at the time, how big a "rapid reaction unit" do you think Israel would've had on standby?
Click to expand...

Jesus, the Israelis have helicopter gunships as support for ground forces and the 1500 Hamas were stretched from one end of Gaza to the other.

From a tactical point of view the IDF should have easily managed the incursion but they didn’t turn up for several hours for some reason.
 
Last edited:
BBC reporting Israel has given a hospital treating wounded civilians 2 hours to evacuate. Reports are white phosphorus has been used on another hospital. These are war crimes. The 'Israel has a right to defend herself' line our politicians have been using is woefully out of date.
 
foggy said:
BBC reporting Israel has given a hospital treating wounded civilians 2 hours to evacuate. Reports are white phosphorus has been used on another hospital. These are war crimes. The 'Israel has a right to defend herself' line our politicians have been using is woefully out of date.
Click to expand...
Least they have had a warning, quite refreshing in times of war
 
foggy said:
BBC reporting Israel has given a hospital treating wounded civilians 2 hours to evacuate. Reports are white phosphorus has been used on another hospital. These are war crimes. The 'Israel has a right to defend herself' line our politicians have been using is woefully out of date.
Click to expand...
and Hamas which controls Gaza and uses innocent civilians to hide behind, wants to wipe the nation of Israel of the map is conveniently overlooked and not mentioned by so many on here. Why is that? The Palestinians themselves have every right to live in peace and to have freedom of movement themselves, but so do Israeli citizens and whilst there are any Palestinian supporters of Hamas still operating as a terrorist group there is always likely to be a problem. Hamas brought this crisis on themselves but then again the same could be said for theIsraeli govt. It's a vicious circle as it stands and somehow some-one has to find a workable and liveable solution for both peoples.
 
I think this is going to go badly wrong for Israel, they’ve announced well in advance what they’re going to do, so Hamas will no doubt have already moved from the north and will regroup. Not only that, their standing with other sympathetic nations will increase and there will be a new generation of radicalised young Arabs ready to join Hamas.

It’s likely western support will be under pressure due to the humanitarian crisis they are creating.
 
20togo said:
and Hamas which controls Gaza and uses innocent civilians to hide behind, wants to wipe the nation of Israel of the map is conveniently overlooked and not mentioned by so many on here. Why is that? The Palestinians themselves have every right to live in peace and to have freedom of movement themselves, but so do Israeli citizens and whilst there are any Palestinian supporters of Hamas still operating as a terrorist group there is always likely to be a problem. Hamas brought this crisis on themselves but then again the same could be said for theIsraeli govt. It's a vicious circle as it stands and somehow some-one has to find a workable and liveable solution for both peoples.
Click to expand...
I literally posted about Hamas hiding behind civilians earlier in the thread. I'm well aware of their terrorism. You're barking up the wrong tree here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top