War again

Ollygon said:
... and there was I thinking it was ethnic cleansing, and land grabbing by the Israelis.

This land was Palestinian long before the State of Israel was created.

It's Britains fault, and particularly Arthur Balfour who in 1917 pandered to Lord Rothschild so he could get more votes in Parliament.

At one time there was serious consideration given to having a Jewish homeland in the USA or Australia.

Pity that wasn't followed up. It could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
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I always thought the Germans should have been made to give up their land, but I dont think its just a matter of creating a Jewish state. They wanted their historic lands, especially Jerusalem
 
20togo said:
yep, I've seen it. There's no doubt that Gaza is a hell hole on earth at the moment and no one probably feels safe wherever they are above ground. And of course much more needs to be done with regards to Humanitarian aid but Israel has to be certain that all the aid is going to the people who need it most. I daresay that Hamas will use the force of gun to make sure they get what they want.
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The big worry is that this will drive more into the arms of Hamas, or Hamas mark 2 or whatever it may be called.
 
The land of Palestine was invaded by the Jews after they left Egypt and many years wandering in the desert. So that land was never theirs🤷🏽‍♂️ so the Palestinians have a case but no justification for the dreadful acts by Hamas
 
Brazil said:
The big worry is that this will drive more into the arms of Hamas, or Hamas mark 2 or whatever it may be called.
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What's the practical effect of that going to be?

AFAIK, Hamas is already oversubscribed with aspirant "freedom fighters", the limiting factor is financial, I can't see how being even more oversubscribed would change anything.
 
I don't want to enter into any arguments or discussions about the rights and wrongs of either side in this awful war. But that picture yesterday, after truck loads of men in underclothes were taken away, of them lined up on their knees and facing what appeared to be a drop was reminiscent of some of the horror pictures from WW2 where the Nazi's lined Jews in particular, but others also, up in front of trenches which in turn became mass graves. It appears that both sides are willing to carry out atrocities to try and win the war. I have no sympathy for either side as they appear to be as bad as each other.
 
Back to Ukraine, the U. S senate has blocked a proposed 60 billion dollars of aid, presumably a lot of military. Republicans want funding for border control in return. This could be the tipping point for Ukraine, the west needs to decide what they’re going to do, if they stop or reduce aid, it’s the end.
 
Curryman said:
I don't want to enter into any arguments or discussions about the rights and wrongs of either side in this awful war. But that picture yesterday, after truck loads of men in underclothes were taken away, of them lined up on their knees and facing what appeared to be a drop was reminiscent of some of the horror pictures from WW2 where the Nazi's lined Jews in particular, but others also, up in front of trenches which in turn became mass graves. It appears that both sides are willing to carry out atrocities to try and win the war. I have no sympathy for either side as they appear to be as bad as each other.
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The IDF needs to be SURE that none of them are hiding a grenade or similar, if that's what it takes then so be it, and Hamas did far, far worse on 7/10.

My sympathy for them - zero.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Don't you feel a bit embarrassed supporting a group that murders women then drives their bodies through the streets as a trophy?
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Its utterly incredible you can't work out who the victims are in this on going slaughter and you probably still call it a war? Are you not embarrassed that the body count over 70 years is unbelievably one sided. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have died protecting their own country. Their land has shrunk by 80%. Even the Yanks are embarrassed by whats happening in Gaza but Lost Seasider from Blackpuddle still doesn't have or understand any the facts. Anti Muslim racist?
 
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Lost Seasider said:
The IDF needs to be SURE that none of them are hiding a grenade or similar, if that's what it takes then so be it, and Hamas did far, far worse on 7/10.

My sympathy for them - zero.
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The slaughter of innocent men women and children didn't start on the 7/10...jeez!!!
 
kuriousoranj said:
It’s utterly incredible you can't work out who the victims are in this on going slaughter and you probably still call it a war? Are you not embarrassed that the body count over 70 years is unbelievably one sided. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have died protecting their own country. Their land has shrunk by 80%. Even the Yanks are embarrassed by whats happening in Gaza but Lost Seasider from Blackpuddle still doesn't have or understand any the facts. Anti Muslim racist?
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He’s from Tufton St.
Doubt he’s ever been to Blackpool in his life.
 
kuriousoranj said:
Its utterly incredible you can't work out who the victims are in this on going slaughter and you probably still call it a war? Are you not embarrassed that the body count over 70 years is unbelievably one sided. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have died protecting their own country. Their land has shrunk by 80%. Even the Yanks are embarrassed by whats happening in Gaza but Lost Seasider from Blackpuddle still doesn't have or understand any the facts. Anti Muslim racist?
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The Yanks voted against the resolution at the UN for a crease fire so hardly embarrassed by it are they?

The U.K. abstained coincidence?
 
kuriousoranj said:
Its utterly incredible you can't work out who the victims are in this on going slaughter and you probably still call it a war? Are you not embarrassed that the body count over 70 years is unbelievably one sided. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have died protecting their own country. Their land has shrunk by 80%. Even the Yanks are embarrassed by whats happening in Gaza but Lost Seasider from Blackpuddle still doesn't have or understand any the facts. Anti Muslim racist
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Blackpuddle? You talk of historical facts and the slaughter of people. You talk of the body count. You talk of it didn't start on 7/10 as if you are trying to justify events of that day! Well if you want to play that card how about the millions of innocent Jews who were killed in ww2. did you call that a war? Why do i feel a stench of an extremist left wing Corbyn follower with an anti semitic stance?
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
The Yanks voted against the resolution at the UN for a crease fire so hardly embarrassed by it are they?

The U.K. abstained coincidence?
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the US rightly voted against it because it contained no condemnation of Hamas. Wasn't the resolution proposed by an Arab state? So no suprise then.
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Thats a really shocking choice of words if I’m being honest.

12,000 Palestinian civilians would be alive today along with the 1,400 Jewish civilians had that day not happened.

I’m shocked you cannot see that.
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Of course he can't.
 
20togo said:
Blackpuddle? You talk of historical facts and the slaughter of people. You talk of the body count. You talk of it didn't start on 7/10. Well if you want to play that card how about the millions of innocent Jews who were killed in ww2. did you call that a war? Why do i feel a stench of an extremist left wing Corbyn follower with an anti semitic stance!
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Let's also talk about all the Jews slaughtered by Arabs who'd migrated into Mandatory Palestine before 1947
 
Wizaard said:
Neither side can justify any of what they've done and continue to do.

It's terrible what's happened and is happening and I don't see any way out of it.
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yes, there's no doubt Israel have steam rollered in with a heavy handed approach of which there is justification for. But the resistance Hamas are putting up shows the significant number of supporters and members they have. As you say, as it stands there doesn't seem any way out of it.
 
20togo said:
yes, there's no doubt Israel have steam rollered in with a heavy handed approach of which there is justification for. But the resistance Hamas are putting up shows the significant number of supporters and members they have. As you say, as it stands there doesn't seem any way out of it.
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What is the alternative?

For all those calling for a "free Palestine", or a ceasefire, what do you think that looks like? How do we solve this situation without it simply being an opportunity for Hamas to regroup and go for 7/10 round 2?
 
According to Sky the IDF are now “detaining” doctors and other medical staff en masse.

So who will treat the children who survived the initial bombing and artillery/tank attacks? Why can’t they be taken the short distance over the border with Gaza into Israel? And treated in those hospitals? Or wouldn’t those pictures go down well?
 
I see Hamas are threatening to kill the hostages. The outcome of this war is inevitable. Hamas need to do the right thing and lay down their arms and surrender. For the sake of the Gazan people so no further civilian lives are lost. The sooner they do that then full scale help can be given to help those people rebuild their lives and their cities and return to some sort of normality.
 
20togo said:
I see Hamas are threatening to kill the hostages. The outcome of this war is inevitable. Hamas need to do the right thing and lay down their arms and surrender. For the sake of the Gazan people so no further civilian lives are lost. The sooner they do that then full scale help can be given to help those people rebuild their lives and their cities and return to some sort of normality.
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They should have laid down their arms weeks ago and saved thousands of civilian lives.

People go on about the IDF killing innocent civilians but Hamas are just as guilty fighting on with a war their never going to win.

It’s clear the IDF aren’t going to stop so it’s up to Hamas to end this and if they did the honourable thing this war could end right now.
 
It's more than slightly unrealistic to expect Hamas to surrender, that means death for them. Do you really think the Israelis would spare them? They are probably dead in any case but they will do fight to the last man and kill as many IDF forces as well.

I'm not enjoying the victim blaming from the supporters of Israel, there are innocent people on both sides of this conflict and none of them deserve to die. It seems that the deaths of Israelis is the fault of Hamas and the deaths of Palestinians is also the fault of Hamas for a lot of people on here. 5000 Palestinian children are now dead.
 
My take on it for what it’s worth is that Hamas did Netanyahu a big big favour as all this has enabled him to create a massive distraction from the numerous counts of corruption he was being investigated for. Not that there is any precedent for this amongst politicians, much!!
 
Grandad John said:
My take on it for what it’s worth is that Hamas did Netanyahu a big big favour as all this has enabled him to create a massive distraction from the numerous counts of corruption he was being investigated for. Not that there is any precedent for this amongst politicians, much!!
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Yep, but Netanyahu`s day will certainly come later: both on his corruption charges, and on his presiding over this debacle...
 
20togo said:
I see Hamas are threatening to kill the hostages. The outcome of this war is inevitable. Hamas need to do the right thing and lay down their arms and surrender. For the sake of the Gazan people so no further civilian lives are lost. The sooner they do that then full scale help can be given to help those people rebuild their lives and their cities and return to some sort of normality.
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I wish this was so, no more deaths 👍

The long term solution has to include Palestinians feeling that they have control over their own land, or the current generation of youngsters will follow the same path.

If we are really honest, the only ones who can bring Israel into line are the Americans, and I am encouraged by their calls for care, in bombing and disappointed by their UN veto. Israel has to stop treating Gaza as a prison camp, and allowing its settlers to steal land in the West Bank, a point you have made yourself several times. The only proper solution is a lomg term political one, like every other conflict in recent times. Palestinians must have dignity, control over their own future, and the basics of food, water and healthcare.

Any solution that does not provide this will fail.
 
Sven said:
www.csis.org

The War in Gaza and the Death of the Two-State Solution

The Emeritus Chair offers his views on the ongoing Israel-Hamas war.
www.csis.org www.csis.org

I've been hearing more academics talking about the failure of a two state solution, perhaps this is a glimpse into the future.
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Full article with lots of facts and figures, but a solution likely to fail. The outcome leaves Israel in control of all areas, whatever international pressures are applied to the Israeli Government to stop its apartheid and control its settlers.

A solution has to respect the Palestinians right to not be Israelis
 
Tangerinemoss said:
I wish this was so, no more deaths 👍

The long term solution has to include Palestinians feeling that they have control over their own land, or the current generation of youngsters will follow the same path.

If we are really honest, the only ones who can bring Israel into line are the Americans, and I am encouraged by their calls for care, in bombing and disappointed by their UN veto. Israel has to stop treating Gaza as a prison camp, and allowing its settlers to steal land in the West Bank, a point you have made yourself several times. The only proper solution is a lomg term political one, like every other conflict in recent times. Palestinians must have dignity, control over their own future, and the basics of food, water and healthcare.

Any solution that does not provide this will fail.
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I agree with your second paragraph (well I agree with all you say but especially the second paragraph).

Following the logic of some on here Ukraine should surrender and allow itself to be subsumed into Russia. Taiwan should allow itself to be taken over by China (what better way to save lives than to surrender before the war has started?). The Falklands should be ceded to Argentina for the same reason.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I agree with your second paragraph (well I agree with all you say but especially the second paragraph).

Following the logic of some on here Ukraine should surrender and allow itself to be subsumed into Russia. Taiwan should allow itself to be taken over by China (what better way to save lives than to surrender before the war has started?). The Falklands should be ceded to Argentina for the same reason.
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Logic of some on here?

Last time I looked Ukrainian was a Sovereign Country and is rightly defending itself from an invader.

Same with Taiwan it’s it’s own country maybe not invaded yet and the Falklands has been British for over 250 years and 99.9% of the population want it to remain that way.

Now remind me me who/what Hamas represent apart from being a terrorist organisation as I’m struggling to understand your comments here? 🤷‍♂️
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Logic of some on here?

Last time I looked Ukrainian was a Sovereign Country and is rightly defending itself from an invader.

Same with Taiwan it’s it’s own country maybe not invaded yet and the Falklands has been British for over 250 years and 99.9% of the population want it to remain that way.

Now remind me me who/what Hamas represent apart from being a terrorist organisation as I’m struggling to understand your comments here? 🤷‍♂️
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It’s not hard to understand really. It’s whether any people (in this case the Palestinians) should welcome being controlled by another people (in this case the Israelis). Rather than being bombed out of their homes and possibly existence (by the Israelis).

And I gave you a few examples of people who could also be bombed and shelled into submission. Ukrainians, Taiwanese, Falkland Islanders. But where I don’t think you’d casually say - just surrender and it’ll stop.

This is why we in the West are accused of double standards. One standard for the Palestinians. Another for other people.

And by the way. None of this is a defence of Hamas. Nor is it antisemitism. It’s just representing how a lot of the rest of the world outside our bubble (and increasingly inside our bubble) see it.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
It’s not hard to understand really. It’s whether any people (in this case the Palestinians) should welcome being controlled by another people (in this case the Israelis). Rather than being bombed out of their homes and possibly existence (by the Israelis).

And I gave you a few examples of people who could also be bombed and shelled into submission. Ukrainians, Taiwanese, Falkland Islanders. But where I don’t think you’d casually say - just surrender and it’ll stop.

This is why we in the West are accused of double standards. One standard for the Palestinians. Another for other people.

And by the way. None of this is a defence of Hamas. Nor is it antisemitism. It’s just representing how a lot of the rest of the world outside our bubble (and increasingly inside our bubble) see it.
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I don’t think people in the west have double standards at all.

I still don’t think we quite understand each other here you talk about bombing people into submission my argument is the Ukrainians and Taiwanese people have countries at stake and will rightly defend to the last man Hamas don’t apart from a ruthless reputation at stake.

We all want to live in peace especially with our neighbours but sadly that will never happen as long as we have people like Putin, Kim Jong-Un and the Islamist leaders around hell bent on exterminating the state of Israel and all Hamas are doing here is delaying the inevitable in fighting a war that they cannot win and in doing so are killing their own civilians.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
I don’t think people in the west have double standards at all.

I still don’t think we quite understand each other here you talk about bombing people into submission my argument is the Ukrainians and Taiwanese people have countries at stake and will rightly defend to the last man Hamas don’t apart from a ruthless reputation at stake.

We all want to live in peace especially with our neighbours but sadly that will never happen as long as we have people like Putin, Kim Jong-Un and the Islamist leaders around hell bent on exterminating the state of Israel.
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You still haven’t explained how it’s ok for some people (Ukrainians and Taiwanese as an example) to resist being subsumed by another nation/people. But not for others (Palestinians).

Apart from your argument that you may (or may not) have rights depending on whether you were born in a “sovereign nation” or not. Lucky Ukrainians and Tawainese. Less lucky the Palestinians.

But as far as I can see what you’re saying is that if you were unlucky enough to be born inside a sovereign nation then the government can do whatever the feck it wants. By your logic the U.K. government should just have flattened the Bogside with artillery and aircraft and transported any surviving catholics to the Irish Republic.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
You still haven’t explained how it’s ok for some people (Ukrainians and Taiwanese as an example) to resist being subsumed by another nation/people. But not for others (Palestinians).

Apart from your argument that you may (or may not) have rights depending on whether you were born in a “sovereign nation” or not. Lucky Ukrainians and Tawainese. Less lucky the Palestinians.

But as far as I can see what you’re saying is that if you were unlucky enough to be born inside a sovereign nation then the government can do whatever the feck it wants. By your logic the U.K. government should just have flattened the Bogside with artillery and aircraft and transported any surviving catholics to the Irish Republic.
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You fail to understand (or just deliberately avoiding saying it) but the Government in Gaza is a terrorist organisation called Hamas and people wonder why a peace agreement cannot be reached and it never will so long as these terrorist are in that region.

Pointless keep arguing about it so I’ll simply leave it at that.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
You fail to understand (or just deliberately avoiding saying it) but the Government in Gaza is a terrorist organisation called Hamas and people wonder why a peace agreement cannot be reached and it never will so long as these terrorist are in that region.

Pointless keep arguing about it so I’ll simply leave it at that.
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Look in the mirror.

You fail to understand (or are just deliberately avoiding saying it) but the Government in Tel Aviv is a terrorist organisation called Netanyahu and Ben Gvir and people wonder why a peace agreement cannot be reached and it never will be so long as these terrorists are in that region.

That’s what plenty of people around the world think anyway.

You asked me a life time ago what Hamas wanted to achieve by 7/10. I told you it was to provoke Israel into a disproportionate reaction that would make the world look at Israel and Hamas and decide there was little difference between the two.

Israel (and you) have danced to their tune ever since.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Look in the mirror.

You fail to understand (or are just deliberately avoiding saying it) but the Government in Tel Aviv is a terrorist organisation called Netanyahu and Ben Gvir and people wonder why a peace agreement cannot be reached and it never will be so long as these terrorists are in that region.

That’s what plenty of people around the world think anyway.

You asked me a life time ago what Hamas wanted to achieve by 7/10. I told you it was to provoke Israel into a disproportionate reaction that would make the world look at Israel and Hamas and decide there was little difference between the two.

Israel (and you) have danced to their tune ever since.
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I ok.

I’ll leave with this.

I’ve just finished watching a 4 part documentary (I recorded in back in November) called Israel and the Arabs it spans 50 years from from 1948 to 1998 but TV coverage of 1985-1998 in that time it saw 5 Israeli prime ministers and 2 US presidents come and go all who went to extreme levels to get peace in that region.

Time after time both sides have been at the brink of negotiated peace agreements and they even signed a peace settlement in first Oslo then Stockholm but while the ink was still drying on the paper it all went to tatters by a Hamas suicide bomber on a bus blowing him and 22 others to pieces in Tel Aviv.

Infact over the years the same thing happened time and time again we’re Hamas exploded bomb after bomb killing hundreds of innocent Israeli civilians yet their so called leaders Arafat included were talking peace sat at the same table as the Israelis and the Americans.

If you haven’t watched it may I suggest you do it might just open your eyes.

In the meantime you continue blaming the Israelis in all this because its clear as hell to me where the problem lies in all this it has been for decades.

Even today (on the BBC news) Hamas rockets are still being fired into Israel and people still wonder why Israel are continuing with this assault in Gaza.

Hamas do not want peace full stop.
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
I agree with your second paragraph (well I agree with all you say but especially the second paragraph).

Following the logic of some on here Ukraine should surrender and allow itself to be subsumed into Russia. Taiwan should allow itself to be taken over by China (what better way to save lives than to surrender before the war has started?). The Falklands should be ceded to Argentina for the same reason.
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conveniently missing the key point. Ukraine didn't encroach into Russia with an act of terrorism and neither did Taiwan. So absolutely no logic in what you say at all.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
I ok.

I’ll leave with this.

I’ve just finished watching a 4 part documentary (I recorded in back in November) called Israel and the Arabs it spans 50 years from from 1948 to 1998 but TV coverage of 1985-1998 in that time it saw 5 Israeli prime ministers and 2 US presidents come and go all who went to extreme levels to get peace in that region.

Time after time both sides have been at the brink of negotiated peace agreements and they even signed a peace settlement in first Oslo then Stockholm but while the ink was still drying on the paper it all went to tatters by a Hamas suicide bomber on a bus blowing him and 22 others to pieces in Tel Aviv.

Infact over the years the same thing happened time and time again we’re Hamas exploded bomb after bomb killing hundreds of innocent Israeli civilians yet their so called leaders Arafat included were talking peace sat at the same table as the Israelis and the Americans.

If you haven’t watched it may I suggest you do it might just open your eyes.

In the meantime you continue blaming the Israelis in all this because its clear as hell to me where the problem lies in all this it has been for decades.

Even today (on the BBC news) Hamas rockets are still being fired into Israel and people still wonder why Israel are continuing with this assault in Gaza.

Hamas do not want peace full stop.
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You’ve conveniently ignored the fact that the Israeli architect of those peace accords (Rabin) was murdered by a right wing Israeli extremist not by Hamas. You’ve also ignored the fact that the accords were with the PLO/Fatah who have renounced violence. Oh. And you’ve also ignored the fact that the accords have been breached many times by the Israelis who have refused to progress talks for a two state solution with Fatah.

So the Palestinians have been quite receptive to peace, although you are right when you say Hamas haven’t.
 
20togo said:
conveniently missing the key point. Ukraine didn't encroach into Russia with an act of terrorism and neither did Taiwan. So absolutely no logic in what you say at all.
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So basically you’re saying that 7 October gives the Israelis a blank cheque to do whatever they want to the Palestinians. Even the children.

You’ve also ignored the fact it was Hamas who launched the terrorist attacks. Not the Palestinians as a collective. And yet they are being punished as a collective.
 
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I understand both sides of the debate you two guys are discussing, the question is, how on earth can a peaceful settlement be achieved?

There“s no doubt that Hamas instigated this current disaster on October 7th and they are classified as a terrorist organisation and must have known what the response would be.

The israeli response has been brutal, they want to eliminate Hamas, but how can they do that when they’re imbedded amongst the Palestinian population?

War crimes have been committed by both sides and will be looked at in the years to come, but right now, the USA and Qatar somehow need to reign in both sides to stop the slaughter.
 
Matesrates said:
I understand both sides of the debate you two guys are discussing, the question is, how on earth can a peaceful settlement be achieved?

There“s no doubt that Hamas instigated this current disaster on October 7th and they are classified as a terrorist organisation and must have known what the response would be.

The israeli response has been brutal, they want to eliminate Hamas, but how can they do that when they’re imbedded amongst the Palestinian population?

War crimes have been committed by both sides and will be looked at in the years to come, but right now, the USA and Qatar somehow need to reign in both sides to stop the slaughter.
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You’re right about the US but the other major player in the region is Iran. Qatar is more of a mediator or honest broker trying to bring the protagonists together, most recently to agree over the release of some hostages and Palestinian prisoners.

I said ages ago that some problems just don’t have a solution. Depressing but true. The difficulty is the number of bad agents involved. Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah on one side. Netanyahu, Ben Gvir and his extreme Omatz party (it translates as Jewish Power which tells you all you need to know. Favoured chants “Kill all Arabs” and “the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian”). The moderates have either been driven out of power or killed (often by their own side - see Israeli PM Rabin.

IMO it’s a case of baby steps. Ceasefire first. That isn’t a solution to Hamas. It’s just designed to stop the killing now. Then US puts pressure on Israel and Iran to negotiate properly. I’m not optimistic.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
So basically you’re saying that 7 October gives the Israelis a blank cheque to do whatever they want to the Palestinians. Even the children.

You’ve also ignored the fact it was Hamas who launched the terrorist attacks. Not the Palestinians as a collective. And yet they are being punished as a collective.
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no they don't have a blank cheque. But just to reverse your point.It was the Israeli govt,you often keep saying Netanyahu, it wasn't Israelis. as a collective. Israel is run by an extremist rght govt much as in the same way Gaza is run by a terrorist govt called Hamas. Many Israelis don't want this war much as in the same way many Palestinians don't want the war, even though recent polls show that the majority of Gazans are in favour of armed conflict. And as Mates points out Hamas are hiding in and behind the Gazan people so that sadly and unfortunately means that innocent people would lose their lives. But what did both you and Hamas seriously expect would happen? As i said very early in this thread of course there was going to be a re-action and that it would be heavy handed. You come across as if this is all now Israels fault but as has been said without events of 7/10 then many thousands of Gazan people would still be alive. The reason they are not is solely down to Hamas and their cowardly attacks on 7/10. And is that not the most key and relevant fact that seemingly so many of you want to now overlook.
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
You’re right about the US but the other major player in the region is Iran. Qatar is more of a mediator or honest broker trying to bring the protagonists together, most recently to agree over the release of some hostages and Palestinian prisoners.

I said ages ago that some problems just don’t have a solution. Depressing but true. The difficulty is the number of bad agents involved. Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah on one side. Netanyahu, Ben Gvir and his extreme Omatz party (it translates as Jewish Power which tells you all you need to know. Favoured chants “Kill all Arabs” and “the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian”). The moderates have either been driven out of power or killed (often by their own side - see Israeli PM Rabin.

IMO it’s a case of baby steps. Ceasefire first. That isn’t a solution to Hamas. It’s just designed to stop the killing now. Then US puts pressure on Israel and Iran to negotiate properly. I’m not optimistic.
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I said Qatar because according to reports, that’s where the Hamas leaders are based, it must be simple for them to get round the table with them.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
You’re right about the US but the other major player in the region is Iran. Qatar is more of a mediator or honest broker trying to bring the protagonists together, most recently to agree over the release of some hostages and Palestinian prisoners.

I said ages ago that some problems just don’t have a solution. Depressing but true. The difficulty is the number of bad agents involved. Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah on one side. Netanyahu, Ben Gvir and his extreme Omatz party (it translates as Jewish Power which tells you all you need to know. Favoured chants “Kill all Arabs” and “the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian”). The moderates have either been driven out of power or killed (often by their own side - see Israeli PM Rabin.

IMO it’s a case of baby steps. Ceasefire first. That isn’t a solution to Hamas. It’s just designed to stop the killing now. Then US puts pressure on Israel and Iran to negotiate properly. I’m not optimistic.
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Iran have been the stumbling block for decades they are the ones who fund the terrorist organisations and train its fighters.

It’s because of countries like Iran than extreme right wing parties are formed in Israel.

There will never be peace in that region because of Iran any wonder why they were never involved in those peace talks I mentioned last night?

And as for Rabin I know very well what happened to him and I was most certainly not conveniently forgetting to mention it as you say but one extreme right wing Jew shouldn’t and wouldn’t have killed the peace process as his predecessor Peres agreed to every one of the peace agreements previously made by both sides but suicide bomb after suicide bomb carried out by Hamas ripped the agreement up in tatters.

I’m shocked why people today still seem to think peace should be an easy solution when you have been trying for over 50 years but broken every time by islamist terrorists bombing innocent Civilians who are the easy targets.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Iran have been the stumbling block for decades they are the ones who fund the terrorist organisations and train its fighters.

It’s because of countries like Iran than extreme right wing parties are formed in Israel.

There will never be peace in that region because of Iran any wonder why they were never involved in those peace talks I mentioned last night?

And as for Rabin I know very well what happened to him and I was most certainly not conveniently forgetting to mention it as you say but one extreme right wing Jew shouldn’t and wouldn’t have killed the peace process as his predecessor Peres agreed to every one of the peace agreements previously made by both sides but suicide bomb after suicide bomb carried out by Hamas ripped the agreement up in tatters.

I’m shocked why people today still seem to think peace should be an easy solution when you have been trying for over 50 years but broken every time by islamist terrorists.
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On balance as well, Israel have tried to broker peace deals and even agree about land. Other surrounding Arab nations have been involved, unfortunately Hamas haven't and want Israel wiped from the planet.
 
Even if Israel achieves its objective of destroying Hamas, they’ve probably created thousands more, many of them kids who will grow up having experienced Israel killing their brothers, sisters, parents etc, as well as destroying their homes.
 
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