Labour Party as Dead as Disco

Bloodtangerine said:
They just keep winning Mex.....why is that?

if they are such easy targets that you personally can rip them apart with your blinding intelligence on this widely read forum then why can’t the might of the Labour Party lay a punch on em?
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Oh dear. Have I pissed on your parade Blood by reminding you of the people who represent the Tory Party?

Sorry about that.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Oh dear. Have I pissed on your parade Blood by reminding you of the people who represent the Tory Party?

Sorry about that.
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No you haven’t at all Amex BUT you haven’t answered my question I note
Lala said:
The thing about all of Boris’s misdemeanours is that they should be costing the party votes.
The fact that they aren’t tells you that people aren’t as bothered about the muck slinging at the moment, they need a party that has half a clue what it stands for.
Labour AND it’s supporters believe calling out BJ’s shortcomings is the way to win an election. Really ? That’s lazy at best.
Starmer isn’t going to turn this around. As a guy he seems decent, but the nation is awash with decent fellas. I don’t know exactly what Starmer or the party stand for right now.
They need a leader with gumption and policies to back that up. And the supporters need to lose this idea that anyone who isn’t voting Labour are stupid, deluded or selfish. This outdated attitude is losing even more party votes and garnering none at all.
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spot on..... and there are a few of those types of people you refer to on here Lala 😁
 
Ruperthoop said:
I find the demise of the Labour party deeply saddening. They are becoming increasingly irrelevant to the electorate and they exhibit little or no insight for why they are becoming an irrelevance. The truth is they have walked away from traditional labour supporters with their i know better attitude and their lack of understanding and empathy for the concerns and needs of those whom once relied on them. I see the corbynistas are demanding Starmer step down. The sad thing is these goons are part of the problem, the hard left never won anything and the momemtum blackshirts and anti-semitism that took a significant hold under corbyn will always be a deep stain on the party. I dearly wish the hard left would form their own party or for the remaining party to disengage and form a new party. The party has to start listening to what is being said to them or it will simply die. Oh for a John Smith or Frank Field as leader, they really would listen and take the fight to the Tories and that nationalist party over the border.
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When Tories claim Labour have a superior attitude it just defies belief.

Any of the current cabinet who don't think they were born to rule? That's exactly the mindset of Boris and Rees Mogg etc etc.

How they can put that on Labour from their Old Etonian ivory tower astounds me.
 
The bottom line is that the majority of the public don't like extreme politics, either right or left. They prefer a Government that encourages business as well as individual opportunities and improvement, but with some social conscience as well. That was the reason for Blair's success. The problem for Labour is that the Tories may have realised that they have to invest more into the social conscious and levelling up agenda. If they do manage that then Labour will have difficulty coming back. The other problem is leadership. Despite his buffoonery and failings, Boris still resonates with much of the electoral (including traditional Labour supporters) in a way that Keir and the Labour metropolitan elite just can't.
The last problem for Labour is that many of the constituency parties were taken over by the left wing / Momentum when Corbyn was leader. They will always field more left candidates and policies that don't fly anymore. They never properly reviewed why they lost so badly the last general election or just want to ignore the reasons for it
 
Burnham aside - and am not sure what his policies are - Labour literally have no one coming through. I predict we'll have two decades of the Tories at the helm now.
 
M61Exile said:
Burnham aside - and am not sure what his policies are - Labour literally have no one coming through. I predict we'll have two decades of the Tories at the helm now.
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I think you probably correct, the Conservatives have no opposition and in time that will not be a good thing..but I guess the victor will not concern themselves with that.The UK is a divided Nation the North and the South are polarised into One democratic dictatorship...it not good at all in my opinion but that how the electorate voted.
 
Bloodtangerine said:
No you haven’t at all Amex BUT you haven’t answered my question I note
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To answer your question Ablood - I dunno. It’s a mystery isn’t it.

Seems like lots of people are comfortable with a PM who accepts bungs and diverts taxpayers’ money to his girlfriend to guarantee a shag. And then, when it’s raised, dismiss it as “mudslinging”.

Doesn’t rest comfortably with me but if that’s the extent of their moral compass then there’s not a lot I can do about it.
 
Towerpower99 said:
Get Alan Johnson back....he appealed to me and I think he would to others.
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Yeah he was popular. I wasn’t that keen to be honest. I seem to remember his department commissioned a report on the damage caused by soft drugs which came back with the answer “not much”.

He then tried to suppress it.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Andy Burnham looks like a guy who could win for Labour - he is the only one I can think of ATM
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Yep. But I think the party would also need to focus on the candidates in the Red Wall seats.

First they should come from the local community not be dropped in from HQ.

They should be Brexit supporters. Despite what some on here say there were lots of them on the left.

I’d prefer them in the John Prescott/Dennis “squeeze them until the pips squeak” Healey mold. Willing and able to grab the soft Tories so prevalent on here by the throat and give them a good shake. And if Andrew Neil takes them on they can start wearing T shirts with the picture of him in his string vest and base ball cap with the famous ex hooker Pamela Bordes.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Yeah he was popular. I wasn’t that keen to be honest. I seem to remember his department commissioned a report on the damage caused by soft drugs which came back with the answer “not much”.

He then tried to suppress it.
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I think that was when Prof Nutt was forced to resign from an advisory committee by the Labour Party because he voiced an opinion that didn't fit in with the 'war on drugs' orthodoxy. Stupid and yes, Johnson (Alan) was at the centre of it.
Personally I would like to see policies on drugs and prostitution overhauled, what we have been doing for years on end clearly doesn't work.
 
Anyone that witnesses the homeless spice zombies on the streets must surely agree that drugs policy is failing.
 
Junior_BentsPlatformShoes said:
Agree with quite a few on here - Labour have had many open goals from the Tories in the last few years but are clueless to capitalise on them. Having a strong opposition is vital but we just haven;t got that. I thought Starmer seemed like a good Labour leader when appointed, with his head screwed on and relatively normal. Unfortunately, he's robotic and doesn't have any real and clear policies, and hasn't challenged the Tory government with any passion or convincing commitment.
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Lack of a certain Charisma is what I feel you are trying to say.
 
Bloodtangerine said:
Party torn down the middle, has no policies at all, just talks in generalities about winning the public’s trust back.....in what??

Starmer isn’t inspirational and almost certainly will be ousted/resign at some stage in next 12/18 months

Then they will elect a left wing leader or if they don’t another who will be harangued by the left wing as Starmer shortly will be

Surely we need a new more centrist Party to provide the opposition that Democracy relies on. It isn’t healthy to have a one Party state which is to all intents and purposes what we have due to Labour’s total Impotence
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I have just posted on similar lines on another thread. If they can’t move back to being more Centre Left they will never get near power in this country.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Personally I would like to see policies on drugs and prostitution overhauled, what we have been doing for years on end clearly doesn't work.
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I don’t disagree but don’t think it would resonate with the electorate and shouldn’t therefore be a headline policy.

The headline policies should be things that’ll have a tangible impact on people’s lives in a positive way and also be deliverable and credible.
 
Wizaard said:
When Tories claim Labour have a superior attitude it just defies belief.

Any of the current cabinet who don't think they were born to rule? That's exactly the mindset of Boris and Rees Mogg etc etc.

How they can put that on Labour from their Old Etonian ivory tower astounds me.
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I don't think it is a superior attitude, tbf. But I do think there are some people on the left who can give the Tories a run for their money when it comes to arrogance.

It's depressing really. The day after an election, Labour's factions fighting like ferrets in a sack over who is to blame. Rinse and repeat.
 
As a wider point, Brexit and Labours divisions on it, sum up the wider problems the party has. The average member/voter from the traditional strongholds are (generally) pro-Brexit. They've formed the view that the difficulties facing parts of the North West, the North East, parts of Yorkshire, Wales etc...were caused by the EU, rather than policies created closer to home. The average member/voter from the new strongholds such as metropolitan boroughs around London see Brexit as hugely negative thing that will damage the country. 2 totally opposing views in one party. Corbyn didn't take a position because he knew he simply couldn't please one half of his party without isolating the other to the point of losing their vote.

There's something similar going on now. Appease those who want a more traditional Labour party. Or those who embraced New Labour and its more centrist approach and who are middle class, but believe in the ideology of wanting fairness for all rather than the elite. There's a schism that needs a strong leader and a strong set of new politicians to fix. As others have pointed out, those people need to come from the 'real world' not party HQ. It's the only forward in my view.

Although all that said, this lot in power will fuck themselves over soon enough. They're shit and we all know it. Once the flag waving around ensuring our own country got its own vaccine has died down, the cracks will emerge and become bigger than ever. But rather like playing a team with an aging and slow defence, you still need the talent to capitalise.
 
Ruperthoop said:
I find the demise of the Labour party deeply saddening. They are becoming increasingly irrelevant to the electorate and they exhibit little or no insight for why they are becoming an irrelevance. The truth is they have walked away from traditional labour supporters with their i know better attitude and their lack of understanding and empathy for the concerns and needs of those whom once relied on them. I see the corbynistas are demanding Starmer step down. The sad thing is these goons are part of the problem, the hard left never won anything and the momemtum blackshirts and anti-semitism that took a significant hold under corbyn will always be a deep stain on the party. I dearly wish the hard left would form their own party or for the remaining party to disengage and form a new party. The party has to start listening to what is being said to them or it will simply die. Oh for a John Smith or Frank Field as leader, they really would listen and take the fight to the Tories and
that nationalist party over the border.
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Excellent post
 
Wizaard said:
When Tories claim Labour have a superior attitude it just defies belief.

Any of the current cabinet who don't think they were born to rule? That's exactly the mindset of Boris and Rees Mogg etc etc.

How they can put that on Labour from their Old Etonian ivory tower astounds me.
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Priti Patel, Sunak?
 
The problem is there has been a realignment in British politics ,towards the right with a sash of nationalistic populism .This is what Cummings understood very clearly and worked it .The reason Boris was reluctant to get rid if a guy who is attuned.
I'm a Labour voter but have to admit Boris plays his cards well which is why he continues to be popular despite constant whiff of cronyism and incompetence.
Labour party members who believe there should be a lurch to the left are crackers .
Although I tend disagree with Bloods working class conservatism he is on the money when he points out the left's blunder in treating people as stupid or out of kilter with the national tone .
This is a big part in why the red wall has fallen .Labour is in danger of becoming party of middle class people living in urban areas.They are saying nothing to working people thus the rise in the populist right - we are British and proud of our traditions is a much more compelling message than the countries fkt,we are all racist homophobes and let's raise taxes to sort it out

Then there's Covid of course and yet again Boris has pulled off a blinder - forget the incompetence and dodgy deals the overall message is positive and coming out of a crisis ,which is what most people want to hear
 
Mexboroseasider said:
To answer your question Ablood - I dunno. It’s a mystery isn’t it.

Seems like lots of people are comfortable with a PM who accepts bungs and diverts taxpayers’ money to his girlfriend to guarantee a shag. And then, when it’s raised, dismiss it as “mudslinging”.

Doesn’t rest comfortably with me but if that’s the extent of their moral compass then there’s not a lot I can do about it.
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It isn’t the extent of their moral compass...... it’s just YOUR view on their moral compass
 
Bisphamtang said:
The problem is there has been a realignment in British politics ,towards the right with a sash of nationalistic populism .This is what Cummings understood very clearly and worked it .The reason Boris was reluctant to get rid if a guy who is attuned.
I'm a Labour voter but have to admit Boris plays his cards well which is why he continues to be popular despite constant whiff of cronyism and incompetence.
Labour party members who believe there should be a lurch to the left are crackers .
Although I tend disagree with Bloods working class conservatism he is on the money when he points out the left's blunder in treating people as stupid or out of kilter with the national tone .
This is a big part in why the red wall has fallen .Labour is in danger of becoming party of middle class people living in urban areas.They are saying nothing to working people thus the rise in the populist right - we are British and proud of our traditions is a much more compelling message than the countries fkt,we are all racist homophobes and let's raise taxes to sort it out

Then there's Covid of course and yet again Boris has pulled off a blinder - forget the incompetence and dodgy deals the overall message is positive and coming out of a crisis ,which is what most people want to hear
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Good post mate 👍
 
Mex- No people are not happy " with a pm who accepts bungs and diverts taxpayers money". They have just decided that morally labour are the bigger bag of shit. It is not the tories or the nationalists that are beating the labour party it is the party itself doing that. You talk of morals but were where the morals when labour permitted the abhorrent anti-semitism and permitted momentum to threaten and intimidate jewish mps. It does not absolve Boris but clearly shows that there is more to the issue . British politics is currently a cesspit and that is deeply sad.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
It will probably take a few more election defeats but at some point we surely must have a progressive alliance between Labour / Lib Dems/ SNP/ Plwyd / Greens where they agree not to field candidates against each other against the Conservative. Then in government the alliance could implement a PR system that should lead to a more cooperative type of government and have another GE fairly quickly.
ATM we have a government supported by roughly 30% of the electorate and it is the same when Labour are in power, is this really the best form of democracy? The system we have renders the vast majority of votes meaningless.
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By ‘implementing’ a PR system they would be going against the 2011 vote on the alternative vote, which was rejected by a solid majority. Is that your idea of democracy?
 
Massive turnout in Scotland Tory vote has held up but Nationalists have benefitted from turnout, big wins in Wales for Nationalism too..
 
My thoughts are:

1. it’s getting to the point where the Torys will have to let the nation vote in their leadership campaign as that is the only one that affects the country’s direction now.

2. What if Labour came out and stated we will negotiate to join EU again if elected?
I’ve seen it argued so many times now that the country doesn’t want Brexit now we know what it is - surely that would lead to landslide victory in that case?

3. What lessons can be learned from Biden’s campaign for Labour?
 
Some very good points in this thread, one I'd like to add is demographics. Boomers have always had a significant demographic advantage over generations older than them, and younger than them. If you trace the baby boomer cohort through the decades, you will see how they're able to influence governments to be favourable to them, from housing to education, often at the expense of other generations.

There's a very good talk about this by Tory peer Lord David Willets - who has some good examples to this effect:


The Labour party has to come up with something that will apply to this demographic which they have polled low with since 2010. Or wait until they die off but that's going to be another 10-20 years.

Like most posters here my issue is I don't really know where Labour stand today. I knew where they stood with Corbyn, for better or worse, but where are they now? The reinvention hasn't happened yet or they haven't done a good job of communicating it.
 
BWseasider said:
Some very good points in this thread, one I'd like to add is demographics. Boomers have always had a significant demographic advantage over generations older than them, and younger than them. If you trace the baby boomer cohort through the decades, you will see how they're able to influence governments to be favourable to them, from housing to education, often at the expense of other generations.

There's a very good talk about this by Tory peer Lord David Willets - who has some good examples to this effect:


The Labour party has to come up with something that will apply to this demographic which they have polled low with since 2010. Or wait until they die off but that's going to be another 10-20 years.

Like most posters here my issue is I don't really know where Labour stand today. I knew where they stood with Corbyn, for better or worse, but where are they now? The reinvention hasn't happened yet or they haven't done a good job of communicating it.
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If they are in such a state that they need to “reinvent” themselves (ie) just come up with some policies they think may be popular rather than those policies deriving from the Party’s core beliefs then we’d be much better off with a new centre left opposition Party
 
Bloodtangerine said:
It isn’t the extent of their moral compass...... it’s just YOUR view on their moral compass
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So what you’re saying then is that nothing is right and nothing is wrong? Different people may think different things are right and other things are wrong bit those are just their opinions?

So I might think a PM taking a bung is wrong. Or a mayor of London using public money to facilitate his sex life is wrong. But those views are just my opinions and it doesn’t mean these things are inherently right or wrong.

Basically you’re arguing for amorality.

That’s fine. But it means we can now dismiss your view on any moral issue as simply your opinion.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
So what you’re saying then is that nothing is right and nothing is wrong? Different people may think different things are right and other things are wrong bit those are just their opinions?

So I might think a PM taking a bung is wrong. Or a mayor of London using public money to facilitate his sex life is wrong. But those views are just my opinions and it doesn’t mean these things are inherently right or wrong.

Basically you’re arguing for amorality.

That’s fine. But it means we can now dismiss your view on any moral issue as simply your opinion.
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No I’m saying you believe yourself to be intellectually superior and therefore entitled to judge others negatively as immoral people if they don’t agree with every thought you have.

“it means WE..”..........No, but it means YOU can by all means.......Knock yourself out dismissing me like you dismiss everyone who disagrees with you, it won’t trouble me Sir
 
Lala said:
The thing about all of Boris’s misdemeanours is that they should be costing the party votes.
The fact that they aren’t tells you that people aren’t as bothered about the muck slinging at the moment, they need a party that has half a clue what it stands for.
Labour AND it’s supporters believe calling out BJ’s shortcomings is the way to win an election. Really ? That’s lazy at best.
Starmer isn’t going to turn this around. As a guy he seems decent, but the nation is awash with decent fellas. I don’t know exactly what Starmer or the party stand for right now.
They need a leader with gumption and policies to back that up. And the supporters need to lose this idea that anyone who isn’t voting Labour are stupid, deluded or selfish. This outdated attitude is losing even more party votes and garnering none at all.
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I agree with most of that but I don't think the issue is passing judgement on people who are NOT voting for Labour. The question is why they are voting for a the party headed by a serial liar who has presided over a shocking outcome to the pandemic for the country. 127,000 deaths.

I am no intellectual myself, in fact I wouldn't mind being referred to as a moron ... but I can't explain that.
 
Lala said:
The thing about all of Boris’s misdemeanours is that they should be costing the party votes.
The fact that they aren’t tells you that people aren’t as bothered about the muck slinging at the moment, they need a party that has half a clue what it stands for.
Labour AND it’s supporters believe calling out BJ’s shortcomings is the way to win an election. Really ? That’s lazy at best.
Starmer isn’t going to turn this around. As a guy he seems decent, but the nation is awash with decent fellas. I don’t know exactly what Starmer or the party stand for right now.
They need a leader with gumption and policies to back that up. And the supporters need to lose this idea that anyone who isn’t voting Labour are stupid, deluded or selfish. This outdated attitude is losing even more party votes and garnering none at all.
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I agree about Starmer but do we know what the government stands for?

It's all a race to the bottom right now, ** shambles the lot of them, it's Labour's responsibility to hold the government to account over their obvious corruption but all Starmer can do is look a bit like a slightly harassed middle manager on his way to parents evening.
 
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Bloodtangerine said:
No I’m saying you believe yourself to be intellectually superior and therefore entitled to judge others negatively as immoral people if they don’t agree with every thought you have.

“it means WE..”..........No, but it means YOU can by all means.......Knock yourself out dismissing me like you dismiss everyone who disagrees with you, it won’t trouble me Sir
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Ooh The Peroni Kid gets personal. 😂

Sure sign he’s lost the argument.
 
This is not just a British thing.
Socialism is in decline across Europe too.
Why does any party have to matter? The Liberal party went from power to nearly nowhere - things change, priorities change, society changes.
IMO equating voting Labour with being moral is a mistake.
 
Ruperthoop said:
Mex- No people are not happy " with a pm who accepts bungs and diverts taxpayers money". They have just decided that morally labour are the bigger bag of shit. It is not the tories or the nationalists that are beating the labour party it is the party itself doing that. You talk of morals but were where the morals when labour permitted the abhorrent anti-semitism and permitted momentum to threaten and intimidate jewish mps. It does not absolve Boris but clearly shows that there is more to the issue . British politics is currently a cesspit and that is deeply sad.
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You are right about the Labour Party and it’s problems with anti semitism. That’s why I didn’t vote for them when Corbyn was the leader. Of course he isn’t the leader now and steps have been taken to address the issue, although how effective they’ve been is a different point. And the anti semites are quiet but haven’t left the party.

All said I’m not sure how far the anti semitism swayed voters yesterday.
 
On the plus side Murdoch is 90 so won't be around much longer 👍 Unfortunately both Desmond and Rothmere are comparatively young and only the good die young.
 
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